February 20, 2023

>>> HELLO TO YOU AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

PRESIDENT BIDEN MAKES A SURPRISE VISIT TO KYIV TO MARK THE FIRST ANNIVERSARY OF RUSSIA'S FULL SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE.

WE HAVE THE LATEST.

THEN.

>> THERE WILL NEVER BE ENOUGH AM ANYTHING AS LONG AS THE WAR CONTINUES.

>> WHAT HIS COUNTRY NEEDS AS THE WAR ENTERS THE SECOND YEAR.

>>> ALSO.

>> WE NEED TO NOT UNDER ESTIMATE RUSSIA.

>> NATO SECRETARY GENERAL JEN STOLTENBURG TELLS ABOUT THE NEW MOVEMENTS.

ALSO PATIENTS.

WE'RE FAILING THEM.

>> DR. ERIC REINHART TELLS MICHELLE MARTIN WHY DOCTORS ARE LEAVING THE U.S. HEALTH SYSTEM IN DROVES AND WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE.

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>>> WELCOME POT -- TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M SARA SIDNER SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

PRESIDENT BIDEN WENT TO KYIV TO MARK THE FIRST ANNIVERSARY OF THE LARGE SCALE INVASION.

YOU CAN SEE THE PRESIDENT BEING RECEIVED BY THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AND HIS FIRST LADY THIS MORNING.

IT'S THE ONLY TIME IN RECENT HISTORY THAT A SITTING U.S. PRESIDENT HAS VISITED AN ACTIVE WAR ZONE THAT DOESN'T FEATURE A LARGE U.S. MILITARY PRESENCE.

TODAY, THE TWO TOOK PART IN A WREATH LAYING CEREMONY AT KYIV'S MEMORIAL WALL AND VISITED A PLAQUE INSTALLED TO VISIT THE MARK OF THE BRAVE IN KYIV'S CONSTITUTION SQUARE.

PRESIDENT BIDEN ANNOUNCED HALF A BILLION DOLLARS IN ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE WHILE THERE AND NEW SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA.

IN A PRESS CONFERENCE, BOTH LEADERS EXTOLLED THE VIRTUES OF THE RELATIONSHIP.

>> THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT VISIT IN THE WHOLE U.S. UKRAINE RELATIONSHIP.

THIS IS A VISIT AT THIS MOST DIFFICULT PERIOD FOR UKRAINE.

WHEN UKRAINE IS FIGHTING FOR OUR OWN LIBERTY, FOR THE LIBERTIES OF THE WORLD AND THIS UNDER LINES THE RESULTS THAT WE HAVE ALREADY ACHIEVED AND WHAT SORT OF HISTORIC ACHIEVEMENTS WE MIGHT GAIN TOGETHER WITH THE WHOLE WORLD, WITH THE UNITED STATES, WITH EUROPE.

>> FREEDOM IS PRICELESS.

IT'S WORTH FIGHTING FOR FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES AND THAT'S HOW LONG WE'RE GOING TO BE WITH YOU, MR. PRESIDENT, FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES.

>> WILL DO IT.

>> THANK YOU.

[ APPLAUSE ] >> THE TRIP COMES JUST AFTER A HEATED MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE, ONE WHERE HIS VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS ACCUSED RUSSIA OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY AND HIS SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN WARNED CHINA NOT TO SUPPLY ARMS TO RUSSIA AS THE WAR DRAGS ON.

IT COMES AS CHINA'S TOP DIPLOMAT WANG YE HEADS TO MEXICO AND SAYING THE UNITED STATES IS NO IN POSITION TO MAKE DEMANDS OF CHINA.

AT THAT MUNICH CONFERENCE, CHRISTIANE SPOKE WITH THE UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER.

HE TOLD HER WHAT HIS COUNTRY NEEDS TO KEEP FIGHTING FOR THEIR OWN SOVEREIGNTY.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> FOREIGN MINISTER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> WE'RE TOLD THAT THERE IS A CONSENSUS THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN IS NOT READY TO ENGAGE IN ANY SERIOUS ROUND TABLE NEGOTIATIONS.

DOES THAT MATCH WITH WHAT YOU KNOW?

>> YES.

WHEN I LOOK AT THE UPDATE, I SEE THAT WHATEVER IS LOOKING FOR FOR JUST PEACE.

THEY ARE ON THE OFFENSIVE.

THEY ARE SENDING MISSILES AND DRONES AND CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE IN CITIES.

YOU DO NOT BELIEVE LIKE THIS SEEKING NEGOTIATIONS.

>> OR TRYING TO GET THE UPPER HAND TO HAVE NEGOTIATIONS.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

NO, HE WANTS WAR, HE WANTS DESTROY UKRAINE AND I BELIEVE HE'S OBSESSED WITH THIS IDEA.

>> IN ALL YOUR DELIBERATIONS, YOUR MEETINGS HERE FACE-TO-FACE WITH MANY OF THE WORLD LEADERS INCLUDING ALLIES SUPPORTING YOUR DEFENSE, DO YOU FEEL YOU'RE NOW THERE OR ON THE ROAD TO GETTING WHAT YOU NEED TO MAINTAIN A ROBUST DEFENSE AND EVEN MAYBE AN OFFENSE?

>> WE NEED CERTAIN TYPES OF WEAPONS BUT CAPABLE OF FIRST DEFENDING TERRITORY AND LIBERATING TERRITORY.

THERE ARE SEVEN TYPES OF WEAPONS ON THIS LIST.

I CALL IT THE BIG SEVEN AND IN ONE YEAR, WE UNLOCKED SIX OUT OF SEVEN WITH ONLY FIGHTER PLANES REMAINING ON THE WISH LIST.

CONVERSATIONS ON EVERY TYPE OF WEAPON STARTED WITH A NO.

EVERY SINGLE WEAPON STARTED WITH A NO AND IN THE END SO WE LOOK BACK AT HISTORY, WE GOT ALMOST EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED IN MANY CAPITALS, INCLUDING D.C., WASHINGTON.

IF THE WAR IN 2022 FOR US WAS WEAPONS, THE WORDS IN 2023 ARE SPEED, SPEED OF DELIVERY AND SUSTAINABILITY.

EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN PLEDGED HAS TO ARRIVE ON TIME TO BE RELEVANT.

IT'S IMPORTANT.

YOU KNOW, IT HAS TO BE RELEVANT.

RELEVANT FOR THE PURPOSES OF OUR VICTORY.

>> AND ALSO, AMMUNITION.

YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO MAINTAIN AND SUPPLY THE WEAPON SYSTEMS THAT THEY'VE SENT YOU AND WE'VE HEARD AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE, THERE IS A GROWING WORRY IN EUROPE THAT THE PRODUCTION FACILITIES JUST AREN'T AS RAMPED UP AS THEY MIGHT BE IN RUSSIA, WHICH HAS A PERMANENT PRODUCTION FACILITY.

THE PEACE DIVIDEND CHANGED THE NATO VIEW OF WAR ON WHAT THEY NEEDED TO DO.

HOW MUCH DOES THAT WORRY YOU?

HOW MUCH AMMUNITION ARE YOU GETTING?

YOU'RE THE FOREIGN MINISTER BUT HOW MUCH DOES THAT WORRY YOU?

>> I BET YOU I CAN UPHOLD A VERY DETAILED CONVERSATION ON AMMUNITION BEING A FOREIGN MINISTER.

THAT'S WHAT I HAD TO LEARN OR WHAT LIFE FORCED ME TO LEARN OVER THE LAST YEAR.

LISTEN, FIRST, DO NOT OVER ESTIMATE RUSSIAN CAPACITY TO PRODUCE WEAPONS.

SECOND, OUR PARTNERS HAVE A TOOL IN THEIR HAND HOW TO SUPPRESS THIS PRODUCTION, WHICH IS SANCTIONS.

AND WE PROPOSED A VERY SPECIFIC FOR EXAMPLE, WE PROPOSED A VERY SPECIFIC LIST OF RUSSIAN ENTITIES INVOLVED IN THE PRODUCTION OF MISSILES.

PUT THEM ON THE SANCTIONS.

MAKE THEIR LIFE EVEN MORE COMPLICATED AND SUPPRESS THE PRODUCTION OF MISSILES.

THIRD, THERE WILL NEVER BE ENOUGH AMMUNITION AS LONG AS THE WAR CONTINUES.

THIS IS JUST THE STATEMENT OF FACT.

YES, IF YOU ASK ME WHAT I NEED THE MOST EVEN NOW, I WILL SAY ARTILLERY AMMUNITION.

IF YOU ASK ME IMAGINE IT SOLVED, WHAT'S NEXT?

I WILL SAY HA HOLE LIZZERS AND I NEED ARMORED VEHICLES TO ADVANCE.

SO THE CONVERSATION OF AMMUNITION WAS REALLY IMPORTANT HERE AND THIS IS WHY HERE IN MUNICH, I BROUGHT TOGETHER UKRAINIAN AND GERMAN DEFENSE INDUSTRIES TO SIT DOWN AND SEEK SOLUTIONS OF HOW THEY CAN RAMP UP PRODUCTION.

BUT BE IT IN THE UNITED STATES OR GERMANY OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY, BUSINESSES NEED CONTRACTS.

AND TO HAVE CONTRACTS, YOU NEED MONEY.

AND THEREFORE GOVERNMENTS WHO WANT TO SUPPORT, UKRAINE, THEY CAN FINANCE THEIR OWN COMPANIES BY CONTRACTING THEIR PRODUCTION OF AMMUNITION AND OTHER WEAPONS AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE WORKING ON.

>> ARE YOU CONVINCED BY ALL THE GOOD WORDS YOU HEAR THAT YOUR ALLIES WILL STAY WITH YOU TO THE BITTER END OR FOR HOWEVER LONG IT TAKES AND NO PEACE WITH UKRAINE BEING AT THE TABLE AND NO UKRAINIAN NEGOTIATIONS?

ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?

OR DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'RE BEING ENCOURAGED TO MAYBE LOOK FOR AREAS OF A DIPLOMATIC POSSIBILITY?

>> I DON'T BELIEVE SOME OF OUR CLOSEST FRIENDS WILL NEGOTIATE BEHIND OUR BACKS, SO I HAVE TRUST IN THAT.

EVEN IF SOMEONE DECIDES TO DO SO, I CAN TELL IN ADVANCE I TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY OF PEOPLE WATCHING YOU.

WHATEVER YOU NEGOTIATE BETWEEN OUR BACKS WILL BE REJECTED BY US.

EVEN IF YOU'RE THE CLOSEST FRIEND.

I THINK IT'S A FAIR DEAL.

I THINK THAT OUR CLOSEST FRIENDS WILL STAY BY US UNTIL WE WIN.

THE QUESTION IS, OF COURSE, HOW MUCH TIME WILL IT TAKE?

WE LIVE IN DEMOCRACIES.

GOVERNMENTS CHANGE, LEADERS CHANGE.

SO THIS IS WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO MAINTAIN WHAT IS BIPARTISAN SUPPORT IN THE UNITED STATES OR MULTI PARTIES AND SO FORTH HERE IN GERMANY SO WHOEVER COMES TO POWER, THE SUPPORT WILL BE THERE AND FRANKLY, YES, I HAVE TO SHOW SOME RUSSIANAL AND SAY YOU CANNOT TRUST EVERYONE IN THE WORLD.

IT NOT ABOUT TRUST BUT A GROUP OF COUNTRIES THAT UNDERSTAND VICTORY OF UKRAINE IS NOT ONLY IN THE BEST INTEREST OF UKRAINE BUT IN THEIR OWN INTEREST.

>> YES, THIS IS WHAT YOUR PRESIDENT SAID WHEN HE CAME HERE LAST YEAR TO SAY OUR FIGHT IS YOUR FIGHT, AS WELL AND YOU NEED TO HELP US AND HE SAID IT AGAIN AND PORTRAYED THIS STRUGGLE AS DAVID VERSUS GOLIATH AND THAT DAVID HAD TO WIN.

QUESTION IS WHAT IS WINNING?

WE SEE WHAT YOUR SIDE PUT OUT.

WE SEE THE TEN-POINT PLAN.

FUNDAMENTAL IN THERE IS THAT RUSSIA REMOVES ITSELF FROM ALL THE TERRITORIES ITS OCCUPIED SINCE 2014.

WHEN I ASK NATO SECRETARY GENERAL OR ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES, THEY WON'T DEFINE WHAT WINNING LOOKS LIKE.

AGAIN, IT'S UP TO YOU.

BUT ONE YEAR LATER, WHAT DOES WINNING LOOK LIKE?

>> FULL RESTORATION OF UKRAINE'S TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY.

THIS IS THE FIRST VICTORY THAT WE HAVE TO GAIN ON THE GROUND.

THEN, OTHER VICTORIES WILL FOLLOW ON MAKING RUSSIA COMPENSATE ON BRINGING PERPETRATORS TO ACCOUNT.

BUT MORE BROADLY SPEAKING, WE HAVE TO ANSWER THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION, WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO ENSURE LASTING PEACE IN THE REGION AND IN THE WHOLE ATLANTIC AREA.

THIS QUESTION HAS TWO ANSWERS.

FIRST HALF OF THE ANSWER IS THAT UKRAINE HAS TO BECOME MEMBER OF U.N. NATO AND THE SECOND IS RUSSIA MUST CHANGE.

AND THIS IS THE MOST INTRIGUING DEBATE THAT HAS TO UNFOLD WHAT TO DO WITH RUSSIA.

>> WELL, WHAT TO DO WITH RUSSIA?

>> DEFINITELY SOMETHING.

SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE.

RUSSIA CANNOT STAY AS IT IS NOW BECAUSE IT'S FULL OF AGGRESSION.

I'M NOT NECESSARILY SAYING THAT IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE OUTSIDERS HAVE TO DO WITH RUSSIA.

I THINK THE PEOPLE OF RUSSIA THEMSELVES HAVE TO START THINKING WHAT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED FOR THE NORMAL LIFE TO BE BROUGHT BACK TO THEIR DAILY ROUTINE.

IT'S A COMPLICATED ISSUE.

THERE ARE NO EASY ANSWERS AT THIS POINT BUT WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS IN THE END, PEACE IS POSSIBLE WHEN RUSSIA WILL NOT BE POSING A THREAT.

>> YOU HAVE SAID THAT IT'S A GOOD DEAL WHAT YOU HAVE WITH YOUR ALLIES, THAT THEY SUPPLY YOU WITH THE WEAPONS SO THAT YOU DO THE FIGHTING AND THEY DON'T NEED TO FIGHT.

DO YOU THINK THAT MESSAGE HAS GOT THROUGH?

DO YOU THINK THEY THINK UKRAINE IS THEIR THREAT, AS WELL?

>> UKRAINE IS -- RUSSIA IS THEIR THREAT -- >> NO, I MEAN -- >> UKRAINE IS NOT THEIR THREAT.

>> UKRAINIAN DEFEAT.

>> IT DEPENDS WHO YOU'RE TALKING TO.

ONE WAY OR ANOTHER YES, THEY UNDERSTAND IT.

BECAUSE WHATEVER THE PRICE OF SUPPORTING UKRAINE IS, THE PRICE OF FIGHTING ON YOUR OWN YOURSELF IS -- WILL BE MUCH HIGHER.

ONE THING IS TO SEND A TANK TO UKRAINE AND IT MAY BE A DIFFICULT DECISION TO MAKE BUT ONE THING IS TO SEND A TANK, ANOTHER IS TO PUT A YOUNG BOY INTO THE TANK AND SEND HIM FOR A TANK.

THIS IS WHY I CALL IT A FAIR DEAL UNLIKE SO MANY COUNTRIES WHO ARE CALLING THE UNITED STATES TO STEP IN, TO COME AND SAVE THEM.

WE SAID WE KNOW HOW TO SAVE OURSELVES.

GIVE US THE SLING SO TO SAY TO DEFEAT GOLIATH YOU TALKED TO FRIENDS WHO ARE NOT QUITE FRIENDLY ENOUGH.

YOU'VE BEEN MEETING WITH CHINESE MINISTERS AND BUT THERE IS A GROUP NOT ON BOARD.

DO YOU HAVE A REALISTIC HOPE OF GETTING THEM ON BOARD WITH YOU AND CAN YOU TELL US ANYTHING ABOUT WHERE THE CHINESE STAND?

>> IN THE BROADEST TERMS POSSIBLE, I BELIEVE THAT COALITIONS HAVE BEEN FORMED AND WILL STAY UNTIL THE END OF THE WAR.

THE MORE SUCCESSFUL UKRAINIAN PARTNERS WILL BE ON THE BATTLE GROUND, THE MORE LEANING AND MOVEMENT AND DRIFTING WE WILL SEE IN THESE COALITIONS BUT THIS IS IN THE BROADEST TERMS.

THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL DESCRIPTION OF NEUTRALITY IN THIS SITUATION BECAUSE EVERY COUNTRY IS DIFFERENT.

THERE ARE 50 SHADES OF NEUTRALITY IF I MAY PUT IT THIS WAY.

ONE COUNTRY VOTES FOR US IN THE UNITED NATIONS BUT DOESN'T PROVIDE ANY PRACTICAL SUPPORT AND ANOTHER COUNTRY IS NOT VOTING IN THE UNITED NATIONS, IS NOT OPENLY PROVIDING SUPPORT BUT IS DOING IT DISCREETLY.

SO I DON'T THINK THERE IS KIND OF ONE UMBRELLA THAT YOU CAN PUT THIS COUNTRY UNDER IT.

EVERYTHING IS VERY NUANCED.

WE HAVE CERTAIN RED LINES AND WE'RE VERY CLEAR ABOUT IT.

THERE ARE TWO OF THEM.

THE FIRST ONE, KNOW IF YOU'RE CALLING FOR PEACE, MAKE SURE THAT YOUR PEACE IDEA IS NOT BASED ON THE NEED FOR UKRAINE TO CONSIDER TERRITORIES.

NO PEACE INITIATIVE CAN BE BASED ON THE IDEA TO CONCEIVE TERRITORIES.

WE'VE BEEN THERE AND SEEN IT AND IT DOESN'T WORK.

THE SECOND POINT, THE SECOND RED LINE DO NOT PROVIDE SUPPORT TO RUSSIA BE IT WEAPONS OR CIRCUMVENTION.

THIS IS WHY UKRAINE HAS THE RIGHT TO RECEIVE WEAPONS IN RUSSIA DOESN'T.

IF THIS TWO RED LINES ARE MET, I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF SPACE FOR IT.

>> DOES IT HURT YOU ESPECIALLY AFTER THIS WHOLE YEAR AND YOUR VERY ELOQUENT DEFENSE THAT COUNTIES ACTUALLY, MANY OF THEM BY RUSSIA'S NARRATIVE, AT LEAST THEY SAY SO IT'S BECAUSE OF THE WEST AND BECAUSE OF UKRAINE, THERE IS FOOD POVERTY AROUND THE WORLD.

THERE IS INFLATION.

THERE IS ENERGY PROBLEMS AROUND THE WORLD.

WHAT DO YOU THINK WHEN THE SOUTH AFRICANS OR INDIANS OR WHOEVER THEY MAY BE SAY THAT TO YOU?

IT'S YOUR FAULT AND THE WEST'S FAULT?

>> I'VE BEEN IN THIS BUSINESS FOR AWHILE AND I DON'T THINK ANYTHING CAN HURT ME IN DIPLOMACY BUT WHEN I FACE COUNTRIES LIKE THIS, I KNOW ONE SIMPLE THING.

IN THE END IT'S ONLY OUR VICTORY ON THE BATTLE FIELD AND ON THE DIPLOMATIC ARENA THAT WILL MAKE THEM CHANGE THEIR POSITION.

I TELL YOU, I GIVE YOU 100% THAT THE SAME COUNTRIES WHO ARE PREACHING NEUTRALITY AND ALL THIS KIND OF THING AND JUST ENDORSING RUSSIAN NARRATIVE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, MANY OF THEM WILL BE REMINDING US YEARS AFTER HOW ACTIVELY THEY SUPPORTED UKRAINE AND ALWAYS STOOD BY THE PRINIPLE OF TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY AND ALWAYS REMIND US OF THAT AND NEVER BUYING RUSSIAN NARRATIVES.

YOU HAVE TO WIN TO CHANGE SOME PEOPLE AND THE SAME, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO WIN TO CHANGE SOME COUNTRIES.

>> HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE YOU TO WIN?

>> IT'S THE MOST PAINFUL QUESTION.

I THINK WE SHOULD NOT BE ASKING THIS OURSELVES THIS QUESTION.

I THINK EVERY DAY INSTEAD OF ASKING OURSELVES HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE TO WIN WE SHOULDN'T BE.

IN THE END YOU GET TIRED.

IT STILL GOES ON.

BUT IF YOU'RE COMMITTED TO SUCCESS, IT MOTIVATES YOU AND MOVES YOU, DRIVES YOU ON.

MOVES YOU FORWARD.

WE DID SUCCEED IN IT.

IF YOU SEE WHAT LEADERS WERE SAYING IN THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR, THEY WERE MOSTLY EMPHASIZING THAT RUSSIA MUST NOT PREVAIL IN UKRAINE AND WE WERE SAYING NO, THIS IS THE WRONG OPTICS TO GET YOUR POLICIES AND DECISIONS RIGHT, YOU HAVE TO SAY UKRAINE MUST WIN AND HEARING MORE AND MORE OF THAT.

THIS LITTLE THING HAVE AN IMPACT ON WHAT KIND OF DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE AND WHAT POLICIES ARE BEING PURSUED.

THE SAME HERE.

>> FOREIGN MINISTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW THIS TIME LAST YEAR THE WORLD WAS BRACING FOR A WAR MANY EXPECTED TO LAST JUST A MATTER OF DAYS BELIEVING THE MIGHT OF RUSSIA WOULD CRUSH THE SMALLER NEIGHBOR UKRAINE.

FEW COULD HAVE IMAGINED THE WORLD WE LIVE IN NOW WHERE FIERCE UKRAINIAN RESISTANCE AND WESTERN SOLIDARITY HELD FIRM THROUGH A YEAR OF WAR.

SO WHAT COULD COME NEXT AND WILL WE SEE SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM RUSSIA OR IN THE IMMEDIATE FUTURE?

THOSE WERE THE QUESTIONS CHRISTIANE POSED TO NATO SECRETARY GENERAL AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE OVER THE WEEKEND.

HERE IS THAT CONVERSATION.

SECRETARY GENERAL, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> LET ME TALK ABOUT RUSSIA BECAUSE EVERYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT SOMEHOW THIS WAR IS GOING TO HAVE TO END AROUND A NEGOTIATING TABLE.

DO YOU SEE ANY SIGN THAT PUTIN IS WILLING TO DISCUSS IN GOOD FAITH AT THIS POINT?

>> NO, WE SEE NO SIGN THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS CHANGED HIS AMBITIONS IN UKRAINE AND WE SEE THE OPPOSITE.

HE'S NOT PLANNING FOR PEACE.

HE'S PLANNING FOR MORE WAR FOR NEW OFFENSIVES AND HE HAS MOBILIZED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF NEW TROOPS.

HE'S SETTING HIS ECONOMY MORE AND MORE ON THE WAR FOOTING AND REACHING OUT TO OTHER REGIMES LIKE IRAN AND NORTH KOREA TO GET MORE WEAPONS.

THE ONLY RESPONSE WE CAN GIVE NOW IS TO STEP OUR SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

>> CAN I JUST ASK YOU WHAT DOES YOUR INTEL SHOW?

THIS LAST YEAR EVERYONE WAS VERY CLEAR RUSSIA IS GOING TO INVADE UKRAINE THIS TIME LAST YEAR.

SO WHAT IS RUSSIA DOING ON THE BOARD ER WITH TROOPS ON THE GROUND, WITH HARDWARE, WITH AIRCRAFT, ANYTHING LIKE THAT THAT YOU CAN SEE THAT IT'S PLANNING FOR MUCH MORE SPRING OFFENSIVES?

>> WHAT WE SEE, THERE IS FIRST OF ALL LAUNCHING OFFENSE SIEVE OPERATIONS ALREADY.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN AROUND BAKHMUT ARE SPRING OFFENSIVE AND A PRELUDE TO THAT IS HARD TO TELL BUT THERE ARE POURING IN MORE AND MORE TROOPS AND MORE AND MORE WEAPONS.

WE ALSO SEE OF COURSE, THE RUSSIANS HAVE NOT VERY GOOD EQUIPMENT AND BAD LEADERSHIP, BAD LOGISTICS BUT WHAT THEY LACK IN QUALITY, THEY TRY TO COMPENSATE IN QUANTITY BECAUSE THEY HAVE MASS.

>> SO HUMAN WAVES OF CANNON FIRE.

>> YEAH AND THAT HAPPENS AGAIN AND THAT'S THE REASON WHY THEY SUFFER HIGH CASUALTIES AND IT'S REALLY BIG NUMBERS BUT OF COURSE, IF I DON'T CARE SO MUCH ABOUT HUMAN LIVES, IT IS MORE AND MORE.

AS WE ALSO KNOW OF COURSE MANY OF THEM ARE CONVICTS, PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN RECRUITED IN THE PRISONS.

SO OF COURSE, THIS IS A VERY SPECIAL FORM OF WARFARE, WARFARE WE HAVEN'T SEEN SINCE THE FIRST WORLD WAR ON THE DEFENSIVE LINES OF THE PART BUT THIS IS HAPPENING IN UKRAINE.

>> 2023 LIKE WORLD WAR I 100 YEARS AGO.

DO YOU THINK THAT RUSSIA HAS LEARNED AND FIXED THE PROBLEMS THAT HAS LED TO WHAT MANY SAY IS A DEBACLE FOR RUSSIAN FORCES OVER THE LAST YEAR?

HAS IT FIXED ANY PROBLEMS?

>> NOT ALL OF THEM.

THEY LEARN SOME LESSONS AND CHANGING THEIR TACTICS AND THE WAY THEY OPERATE BUT THEY CONTINUE TO STRUGGLE WITH LOW MORAL.

THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN JUST FIX.

WE SPEAK ABOUT AN INVADER SENDING PEOPLE INTO ANOTHER COUNTRY TO OCCUPY AND ALWAYS HARD TO KEEP HIGH MORAL AND IF YOU RECRUIT A LOT OF CONVICTS AND THEN PUT THEM ON THE FRONT LINE JUST A FEW DAYS OR WEEKS AFTER YOU HAVE -- GET THEM OUT OF A PRISON CAMP THEN OF COURSE YOU DON'T HAVE HIGH MORAL.

THEY ARE WORKING ON LOGISTICS.

THEY'RE WORKING ON EQUIPMENT BUT OF COURSE, THEY DEPEND ON OLD EQUIPMENT, OLD AMMUNITION SO YES, THEY HAVE SOME WELL TRAINED FORCES BUT EVEN THE WELL TRAINED FORCES HAVE NOT PROVEN TO BE CAPABLE ON THE BATTLE FIELD.

AGAIN, MASS MATTERS AND AS THE GENERAL SAYS, QUANTITY HAS A QUALITY IN ITSELF AND THAT'S THE REASON WHY WE JUST NEED TO NOT UNDER ESTIMATE RUSSIA.

>> RIGHT.

BUT OKAY.

BUT ALL THE SPEECHES AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE INCLUDING FROM YOURSELF HAVE ADMITTED, ACKNOWLEDGED THAT ACTUALLY THIS SIDE, YOUR SIDE IN UKRAINE IS ALSO RUNNING OUT OF MASS, MASSIVE AMMUNITION.

THIS, YOU THINK, WOULD BE A WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY WHILE RUSSIANS ARE STRUGGLING AND THROWING CONVICTS AT THE FIGHT BUT YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO JUMP IN AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH AMMUNITION.

>> WE ARE BEING TRANSPARENT ABOUT THE FACT THAT AT A CURRENT EXPENSE OF AMMUNITION, IT IS HIGHER THAN OUR TOTAL PRODUCTION AND OF COURSE, THAT CANNOT CONTINUE.

SO FAR, WE HAVE DEPLETED OUR STOCKS BUT AT SOME STATES WE NEED TO GET MORE AMMUNITION PRODUCED.

WE SAW THAT ACTUALLY LAST FALL BECAUSE THEN WE SAW THAT THIS WAR WAS MOVING INTO A WAR OR ATTRITION AND A WAR OF ATTRITION IS A BATTLE OF LOGISTICS, HOW HARD YOU GET ENOUGH STUFF, MATERIAL, SPARE PARTS, AMMUNITION, FUEL TO THE FRONT LINES.

SO THEREFORE WE HAVE STARTED TO WORK WITH INDUSTRIES.

WE CONVENED AT THE NATO HEADQUARTERS AND HAVE A MEETING WITH ALL THE NATO ALLIES AND NOW ALLIES ARE STARTING TO RAMP UP PRODUCTION.

THE ONLY WAY TO DO THAT IS ACTUALLY TO SIGN CONTRACTS WITH THE DEFENSE INDUSTRY, MOVE THE CONTRACTS AND SEE THAT NOW STARTING TO TAKE PLACE AND OUR PRODUCTION IS INCREASING BUT WE NEED TO SPEED IT UP.

>> WILL IT HAPPEN IN TIME TO MEET WHEN PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAYS, WHICH IS TO END THIS WAR THIS YEAR?

>> WARS ARE BY NATURE EXTREMELY UNPREDICTABLE.

SO I AM VERY CAREFUL PREDICTING.

NOBODY KNOWS HOW AND WHEN THIS WAR WILL END.

WE KNOW THE ONLY WAY TO ENSURE THIS ENDS IN A WAY WHICH IS ACCEPTABLE FOR UKRAINE IS TO PROVIDE MILITARY SUPPORT TO THEM.

MANY WARS, MAYBE ALSO THIS WAR WILL END AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE IS TOTALLY DEPEND ON THE STRENGTH ON THE BATTLE FIELD SO IF YOU WANT UKRAINE TO PREVAIL AS A SOVEREIGN NATION AND A PEACEFUL NEGOTIATING SOLUTION, TOMORROW, THEN YOU NEED TO PROVIDE MILITARY SUPPORT TODAY.

>> YOU'RE SAYING THAT AS HEAD OF NATO BUT DO CONSTITUENTS UNDERSTAND THAT?

UKRAINE SAID WE HAVE A PEACE PLAN AND THAT IS RUSSIA GETS OUT OF ALL OUR TERRITORY.

ARE YOUR GOVERNMENTS SIGNED UP?

IS CRIMEA INCLUDED.

>> I THINK WE HAVE SEEN AN UNPRECEDENTED SUPPORT FROM NATO ALLIES AND PARTNERS.

I THINK HARD -- >> THEY NEVER DEFINED WINNING.

>> NO, BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S FOR ME TO SIT IN BRUSSELS OR MUNICH TO DEFINE IS THAT.

>> UKRAINIANS -- I'M ASKING YOU -- >> IT IS FOR UKRAINIANS -- >> THEY DID DECIDE.

THEY SAID IT PUBLICLY.

>> WE SUPPORT THEM BECAUSE WE NEED TO REMEMBER THIS IS A WAR OF AGGRESSION, PRESIDENT PUTIN AND RUSSIA INVADED NO OTHER COUNTRY.

UKRAINE HAS THE RIGHT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AND THAT'S ACTUALLY RIGHT AND WE HELP THEM TO UPHOLD THAT RIGHT.

THEN NOBODY KNOWS EXACTLY HOW THIS WILL END.

MAYBE IT WILL END AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE AT LEAST IT IS FOR THE UKRAINIANS TO DECIDE THE CONDITIONS.

OUR RESPONSIBILITY IS TO SUPPORT THEM SO THEY GET THE BEST POSSIBLE CONDITIONS.

>> EVEN IN RETAKING CRIMEA?

>> AGAIN, THIS IS FOR UKRAINE TO DECIDE.

WE PROVIDE THEM WITH SUPPORT AND PROVIDED THEM WITH UNPRECEDENTED SUPPORT.

PRESIDENT PUTIN MADE TWO BIG MISTAKES INVADING UKRAINE.

ONE IS UNDER ESTIMATE UKRAINE.

THE PEOPLE, THE ARMED FORCES AND POLITICAL LEADERSHIP BUT ALSO TOTALLY UNDERESTIMATED THE UNIT AND STRENGTH OF ALLIES.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT PUTIN AND HIS MEN CAN TAKE BAKHMUT?

WE'RE HEARING THEY'RE NOT SURE THAT CAN HAPPEN AND DO YOU THINK THE UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN STRATEGICALLY SMART TO FOCUS SO MUCH ATTENTION ON BAKHMUT INSTEAD OF MAYBE OTHER AREAS DOWN SOUTH, WHICH ARE EQUALLY IMPORTANT.

>> THESE ARE GOOD QUESTIONS BUT SECRETARY OF GENERAL, WE ARE CAREFUL TO GO INTO THE OPERATIONAL DETAILS BECAUSE THERE ARE DIFFICULT DILEMMAS TO FACE.

SECOND, I REALLY FEEL THAT I SHOULD TRUST UKRAINIANS IN MAKING THOSE JUDGMENTS.

THEY ARE THE FRONT LINE.

THEY HAVE -- AS I SAY, THEY ARE CLOSE TO THE -- TO WHAT IS GOING ON EVERY DAY AND PAYING THE PRICE BECAUSE OF COURSE, THEY ARE PAYING THE PRICE FOR HOLDING THE LINES.

>> 100%.

AS YOU HEARD, ZELENSKYY, THE PRESIDENT SAY YESTERDAY, HURRY, HURRY, SPEED IS OF THE ESSENCE NOW AND YOU'RE TELLING ME WE CAN'T HURRY BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THE WHERE WITH ALL AND WE HAVE TO WAIT TO GET THE PRODUCTION UP AND RUNNING.

>> WE ARE STEPPING UP BOTH THE VOLUME BUT ALSO THE SPEED IN WHICH WE HAVE DELIVERING AID TO UKRAINE.

BECAUSE ALLIES, WE MET IN THE NATO HEADQUARTERS WITH THE DEFENSE MINISTERS JUST ALREADY THIS WEEK AND THE MESSAGE TO ALL OF THEM IS WE NEED TO DELIVER MORE AND THIS IS A REASON WHY WE'RE DEPLETING STOCKS AND TAKING WEAPONS WE'RE PLANNING TO USE FOR OUR DEFENSE TO DELIVER TO UKRAINE BECAUSE WE REALIZE THAT IF PUTIN WINS IN UKRAINE, IT'S ALSO DANGEROUS FOR US.

>> EXACTLY.

>> IT'S IN SOLIDARITY WITH UKRAINE AND OUR SECURITY INTEREST TO ENSURE PUTIN DOESN'T WIN.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT US, THE NATO NATIONS.

I THINK SOME OF THE BALTIC STATES ARE KIND OF CONCERNED BECAUSE THEY'RE THE CLOSEST TO ANY ADVENTURE BY PUTIN AND THEY ARE WORRIED THAT NOT EVEN A BRIGADE OR 5,000 SOLDIERS OF NATO HAVE GONE TO BE A BUFFER.

THE GOVERNMENTS DON'T WANT TO OR CAN'T AFFORD TO OR ARE STRAPPED OR WHATEVER.

REMEMBER IN THE NATO SUMMIT YOU ANNOUNCED ON AIR AND GO TO DEFEND THAT FRONT.

IT HASN'T HAPPENED.

WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE?

>> TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

I NEVER ANNOUNCED WE HAD 300,000 TROOPS -- >> BUT YOU HOPED THAT WOULD BE -- >> YOU START AND CHANGED HOW WE CONDUCT COLLECTIVE OFFENSE IN EUROPE SINCE 2014 BECAUSE NATO DIDN'T START TO RESPOND TO THIS LAST YEAR.

AND GO DANBAS AND HAVE HIGH FORCES.

I THINK IT WILL BE ABSOLUTELY MEANINGFUL TO DEPLOY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TROOPS.

>> WHAT ABOUT 5,000 IN LITHUANIA?

>> WHAT WE HAVE DECIDED IS TO HAVE BATTLE GROUPS THERE AND ALL THE BALTIC COUNTRIES AND EIGHT COUNTRIES AND IN THE PROCESS OF MAKING THEM SCALEABLE BRIGADES THAT WILL TRAIN AND CAN BE QUICKLY DEPLOYED.

EVEN MORE IMPORTANT IS OF COURSE WE HAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TROOPS THAT WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR REINFORCEMENT.

I THINK IF THERE IS ANYTHING I LEARNED FROM UKRAINE IS THAT YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO MOVE YOUR FORCES QUICKLY TO WHERE THEY ARE NEEDED SO WE DON'T HAVE TO DEPLOY EVERYONE IN ONE SPECIFIC PLACE BUT HAVE HIGHER READINESS, EQUIPMENT AND THEN THESE TROOPS IN THE BALTIC COUNTRIES BACKED BY SUBSTANTIAL NAVAL FORCES.

>> IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU AND FINLAND FOR INSTANCE OVER JOINING NATO.

YOU SUGGESTED IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS THAT MAYBE THEY COULD BE, YOU KNOW, SEPARATE SUCCESSION BUT SAID NO CHANGE, THEY WOULD JOIN SIMULTANEOUSLY.

>> WHAT I CAN SAY, IT'S MY POSITION AND NATO'S POSITION THAT WE INVITED FINLAND AND SWEDEN AT THE SAME TIME.

WE ASSIGNED SUCCESSION PROTOCOLS AT THE SAME TIME AND I'M WORKING HARD TO GET THEM INTO NATO AT THE SAME TIME AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS NOT WHETHER THEY JOIN EXACTLY AT THE SAME TIME BUT BOTH ARE ALLOW INTO NATO AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

I WENT THIS WEEK WITH GOOD TALKS ON THE ISSUE OF MEMBERSHIP FOR FINLAND AND SWEDEN.

THE PROCESS IS MOVING.

AGAIN, IT'S FOR TURKEY TO ANNOUNCE THEIR POSITION.

NATO MADE THE DECISIONS.

THE SUCCESSION PROTOCOLS SO NOW IT'S FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL ALLY TO RATIFY 28th ALLIES RATIFIED AND OF COURSE A TURKISH DECISION.

>> AND YOURSELF, ARE YOU GOING TO SEEK ANOTHER EXTENSION OF YOUR TERM?

>> NO, I MADE IT CLEAR I'VE NOT SERVED IN YEARS AND ABLE TO FIND A GOOD PERSON TO FOLLOW ME.

>> IF ASKED YOU WOULDN'T STAY?

>> IT'S ABSOLUTELY SPECULATIVE ABOUT THIS POTENTIAL THING.

MY MAIN FOCUS NOW IS ON HOW TO ENSURE THAT ALLIANCE SUPPORT UKRAINE AND RAMPING UP PRODUCTION AND ENSURE COLLECTIVE DEFENSE SO THIS CONFLICT DOESN'T ESCALATE AND THAT'S MY HOPE.

>> JUST ONE THING YOUR TERM WILL BE DEFINED BUT RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.

HOW HAVE YOU CHANGED AND HOW HAS IT CHANGED YOU IN THE LAST YEAR?

>> THE HOPES I HAVE ABOUT CREATING A BETTER RELATIONSHIP WITH RUSSIA DISAPPEARED.

I SAW HOW WE WERE ABLE TO IMPROVE OUR RELATIONSHIP IN '99 AND 2000 AND ABLE TO WORK TOGETHER WITH RUSSIA ON ISSUES BUT THAT HAS TOTALLY EVAPORATED BECAUSE OF AGGRESSIVE AND FULL FLEDGE INVASION OF UKRAINE LAST YEAR WAS CARRYING AWAY FROM ANY DIALOGUE WITH NATO AND THE REST.

>> OKAY.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND TOMORROW CHRISTIANE WILL ANCHOR FROM THE LATEST FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN'S TRIP TO POLAND.

>>> TURNING TO A CRISIS PLAGUING HEALTH CARE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE THE NUMBER OF PHYSICIANS IS DWINDLING DRASTICALLY.

IN 2021 ALONE, AROUND 117,000 LEFT THE WORK FORCE AND ONE IN FIVE DOCTORS SAY THEY PLAN TO LEAVE IN THE COMING YEARS IN HIS RECENT OPINION, PHYSICIAN EXPLAINS THE FLAWS OF THE SYSTEM AND JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS THE POTENTIAL SOLUTIONS TO THIS WORRYING TREND.

DOCTOR, THANKS FOR TALKING TO US TODAY.

>> MY PLEASURE.

THANK YOU.

>> WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A REALLY POWERFUL AND I WOULD HAVE TO SAY DISTURBING ESSAY THAT YOU -- THAT WAS PUBLISHED IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES."

WILL YOU SAY THAT WE TALK A LOT ABOUT HOW DOCTORS AND OTHER MEDICAL PERSONNEL ARE BURNED OUT.

BUT YOU SAY THEY'RE NOT BURNED OUT, THEY'RE DEMORALIZED.

TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

>> DOCTORS HAVE WORKED HARD FOR A VERY LONG TIME IN THE U.S.

THEY HAVE BEEN OVER WORKED AND BEEN EXPLOITED BY MEDICAL SYSTEMS.

IN THE LAST COUPLE DECADES DOCTORS' WORKING HOURS DECLINED.

THE PANDEMIC DISRUPTED OUR IMPRESSION OF THE SYSTEM FOR WHICH WE WORK.

I THINK ONE OF THE MOST DEMORALIZING THINGS, THE THINGS THAT LEAD TO WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS BURNOUT IS WHEN THIS SYSTEM THAT YOU WORK FOR IS NOT SERVING THE ENDS THAT IT CLAIMS TO SERVE, WE AS DOCTORS WANT TO SERVE OUR PATIENTS.

I REALLY BELIEVE THAT ABOUT THE COLLEAGUES WITH WHOM I WORK AND WE'RE CONSTANTLY FAILING THEM NOT THROUGH LACK OF EFFORT ON OUR PART BUT BECAUSE OUR HEALTH SYSTEM AND WELFARE SYSTEMS ARE NOT SET UP TO ALLOW US TO SUCCEED AND DOCTORS HAVE PLAYED A VERY LARGE PART IN PRODUCING THAT REALITY OVER A LONG HISTORICAL PERIOD.

WE HAVE IN SOME SENSE ALLOWED OURSELVES TO BE PAID OFF.

WE HAVE HIGHEST IN THE WORLD COMPENSATION FOR PHYSICIANS.

AND WE WORK IN THE LEAST EFFECTIVE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IN THE WORLD AMONG WEALTHY NATIONS.

WE HAVE DRAMATICALLY POOR MORTALITY FOR EXAMPLE THAN PURE -- PEER NATIONS.

>> SO IN A WAY YOU'RE SAYING THERE IS A BIG LIE AT THE HEART OF PROFESSION.

I MEAN, WE'VE TALKED A LOT ABOUT HOW NURSES AND OTHER MEDICAL PERSONNEL ARE LEAVING THE FIELD.

NURSES IN PARTICULAR HAVE GOTTEN A LOT OF ATTENTION BECAUSE OF THE COVID PANPANDEMIC.

YOU'RE SAYING NURSES ARE LEAVING THE FIELD.

IF THEY HAVEN'T, THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT IT.

WHY NOW?

>> I THINK WHY ALL OF THESE GROUPS ARE NOW UNABLE TO SUSTAIN THE BELIEF THEY HAVE IN THE SYSTEM, SOME MARGINAL BELIEF, THE PANDEMIC ACCELERATED DEATH BUREAUCRATICALLY ORDAINED DEATH.

THEY PUT IT AT A RATE WE NEVER SEEN BEFORE.

THERE WAS A STUDY AT THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF TOP SCIENCE JOURNAL THAT ESTIMATED 338,000 LIVES COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED HAD WE HAD A UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IN THE U.S. LIKE EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY IN THE WORLD HAS.

WHEN YOU'RE WORKING AS A DOCTOR OR A NURSE OR A STAFF MEMBER AT A NURSING HOME AND YOU'RE SEEING DEATH AFTER DEATH THAT DID NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN AND YOU'RE READING ABOUT IT CONSTANTLY IN THE NEWS, THE NEW YORK TIMES IS PUBLISHING EXPO AFTER EXPO AND WHO IS PROFITING FROM AND DELIBERATELY DESIGNING SYSTEMS TO PRODUCE THESE OUTCOMES, THIS IS -- HAS LED TO WHAT I CALL IN THE ESSAY A COLLAPSE OF AMERICAN MEDICAL IDEOLOGY THAT IS THE STORIES THAT WE HAVE TOLD OURSELVES ABOUT OURSELVES FOR SO LONG THAT SUSTAINED OUR MOTIVATION DESPITE POOR WORKING CONDITIONS, DESPITE THE FACT THAT TRAINING AND NURSES AND DOCTORS ARE EXPLOITED BY THIS SYSTEM, WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SUSTAIN SOME BELIEVE THAT OUR WORK MATTERED.

THAT IT WAS PART OF A MORAL ENTERPRISE.

I THINK THAT VISION OF OURSELVES IS COLLAPSING NOW.

>> YOU CALL IT CORRUPTION.

WHY DO YOU USE THAT WORD?

IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE THIS IS THE WAY IT DESIGNED TO WORK IN A WAY EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT IT'S NOW COLLAPSING.

>> I DON'T MEAN CORRUPTION IN LEGAL TERMS PER SE.

BUT I THINK WHAT YOU HAVE IS A FIELD THAT IS ENTIRELY INCONSISTENT WITH THE ETHICAL VALUES IT HOLDS UP.

IF YOU GO THROUGH MEDICAL SCHOOLS IN THE U.S., YOU'LL HEAR IN EVERY MEDICAL SCHOOL YOU MIGHT ATTEND LONG SPEECHES ABOUT HEALTH EQUITY, HEALTH JUSTICE, HOW THIS IS WHAT OUR INSTITUTION IS DESIGNED TO SERVE AND YOU WORK IN THE HOSPITALS.

I'VE HAD EXPERIENCES LIKE THIS.

YOU SEE THE POLICIES THAT DICTATE WHO COMES INTO THIS HOSPITAL, WHAT KIND OF CARE THEY GET, WHAT KIND OF AFTER CARE THEY DON'T GET IS NOT GUIDED BY THE IDEAS OF HEALTH EQUITY OR HEALTH JUICE OR EVEN CARE.

IT'S GUIDED BY A GOAL OF MAXIMIZING REVENUE AND IN MANY CASES PROFIT.

>> SO LET'S JUST TAKE IT AT THE CORE OF IT, YOU SAY IS THE FOR PROFIT MODEL.

AT THE CORE OF IT IS THAT AMERICAN HEALTH CARE IS PRIMARILY DELIVERED THROUGH FOR PROFIT MECHANISMS, EVEN INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE NOT FOR PROFIT, RIGHT?

THEY'RE STILL OPERATING UNDER A PROFIT MOTIVE, RIGHT?

AND SO YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT THIS LEADS TO FUNDAMENTALLY TERRIBLE OUTCOMES THAT PATIENTS GET INFERIOR CARE AND MEDICAL PERSONNEL DOCTORS INCLUDED JUST CAN'T BASICALLY KIND OF KEEP UP.

THEY CAN'T FULFILL THEIR ETHICAL OBLIGATION TO CARE FOR PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THAT.

TELL ME WHY YOU'RE SO CONVINCED THAT THAT IS AT THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM.

>> YOU KNOW, THERE'S A TRADITION THAT I COME OUT OF CALLED SOCIAL MEDICINE FOUNDED BY THIS PATHOLOGIST IN GERMANY.

RUDOLPH.

HE WENT AND STUDIED AN EPIDEMIC AT THE TIME.

HE'S A SPECIALIST IN PATHOLOGY.

THE FIRST THING THAT HE REALIZED WHEN HE GOT THERE AND YOU'RE STUDYING THIS EPIDEMIC IS THAT IT WASN'T HIS PATHOLOGICAL BUT LABOR CONDITIONS.

THEY ARE HEALTH.

THE U.S. MEDICAL PROFESSION FASHIONED ITSELF FOR A HALF CENTURY OVER SUP PRESSING THE AWARENESS AND THE PRODUCT OF POLICY DECISIONS AND IF WE DO NOT ENGAGE IN POLITICAL STRUGGLE TO ADVANCE QUALITY OF LIFE FOR OUR PATIENTS, WE CANNOT FULFILL OUR ETHICAL OBLIGATIONS.

THIS IS AN OBVIOUS REALITY.

THIS IS TRUE EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

U.S. DOCTORS HISTORICALLY HAVE REFUSED THIS.

IN MY VIEW, ETHICS AND MEDICINE OR ANY SCENE IN LIFE HAS TO BE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE EFFECTS.

IF YOUR ETHICAL FRAME WORK IS PRODUCING EFFECTS THAT KILL PEOPLE WHO DO NOT NEED TO DIE, SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY ARE DEPRIVED OF CARE BECAUSE THEY CANNOT PAY, THAT IN MY VIEW IS NOT AN ETHICAL SYSTEM.

ETHICS WITHOUT A PAIRED POLITICS TO ADVANCE THE IDEAS YOU CLAIM TO SUBSCRIBE TO IS LARGELY MEANINGLESS AND IN LARGE WAYS NEXT TO NOTHING.

>> WHY ARE YOU SO CONVINCED THAT'S AT THE CORE OF THE PROBLEM AS OPPOSED TO DECOUPLING HEALTH INSURANCE TO YOUR JOB.

BY SOME STANDARD THAT WOULD BE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE.

SO PEOPLE DO THINK THEY ARE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE BECAUSE THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT AND ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE WHO DIDN'T HAVE IT BEFORE, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DO.

WHY IN YOUR VIEW HAS THAT NOT FIXED THE PROBLEM.

>> TO CLEAR UP THE LAST POINT.

YOU'RE RIGHT THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT EXPANDED HEALTH CARE ACCESS.

THERE ARE STILL OVER 30 MILLION AMERICANS WHO DO NOT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE AND CONTINUOUS HEALTH CARE ACCESS.

THEY CAN ONLY GET ACCESS THROUGH EMERGENCY DEPARTMENTS AND IT'S VERY SUBSTANDARD CARE AND BROKEN UP AND VERY INEFFECTIVE AND LEADS TO A LOT OF MEDICAL ERRORS AND THE FACT PEOPLE WHO HAVE INSURANCE ARE UNDER INSURED.

I WORK AT A HOSPITAL WHERE I CAN'T TREAT A LOT OF PATIENTS WHO COME IN WITH CERTAIN KINDS OF INSURANCE.

I HAVE TO REFER THEM OUT.

SOMETIMES IT TAKES DAYS TO BE TRANSFERRED FROM THE EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT TO A HOSPITAL.

THAT'S NOT UNIQUE TO MY HOSPITAL.

I'M NOT A FAN OF THE POLICY.

THAT'S TRUE AT COUNTLESS HOSPITALS AROUND THE COUNTRY.

SIMPLY THE FACT OF INSURANCE COVERAGE DOES NOT ENSURE GOOD CARE AND THE FUNDAMENTAL ROOT OF WHAT DETERMINES CARE, STRUCTURE AND ALL OF THESE CONTEXT IS REVENUE MOTIVATION.

AND THAT IS A FOR PROFIT PHARMA SYSTEM, INSURANCE SYSTEM.

THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT EXPANDED ACCESS WHICH IS IMPORTANT AND MORE DEEPLY ENTRENCHED THE INSURANCE STRUCTURE TO HAVE PRIVATE INSURANCE THAT IS MAKING MONEY OFF OF THIS SO ENHANCED INSURANCE COMPANY PROFITS SUBSTANTIALLY.

WHAT YOU SEEN DURING THE PANDEMIC FOR EXAMPLE, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVE DIED UNNECESSARILY ARE RECORD PROFITS IN MANY HOSPITALS IN THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY AND INSURANCE INDUSTRY.

WHAT WE HAVE IS A FUNDAMENTAL DECOUPLING OF HEALTH CARE OF ACTUAL CARE AND HEALTH OUTCOMES WITH -- AND THE GOALS OF THE SYSTEM.

>> AND YOU REALLY POINT THE IF I THINK -- FINGER AT DOCTORS.

YOUR ARGUMENT AT CORE IS DOCTORS ARE TO BLAME FOR NEED, DESIRE FOR STATUS AND MONEY.

IS THAT FAIR.

>> I AM A DOCTOR.

WHEN YOU'RE PART OF A POWERFUL INSTITUTION IS TO HOLD IT ACCOUNTABLE.

I'LL CALL OUT MY COLLEAGUES.

THERE IS AN EXCELLENT ARTICLE IN THE NEW YORKER.

PART OF WHAT HE SAYS IS DOCTORS ARE RESISTANT TO THE IDEA THEY SHOULD BE ORGANIZED TO CARE.

WE'VE BEEN ORGANIZING TO ENHANCE OUR INCOME AND ENHANCE OUR POLITICAL POWER.

THIS IS TRUE.

IF YOUR STUDY THE HISTORY OF U.S. MEDICINE, YOU CAN SEE FROM THE 1930s AND 40s IN CALIFORNIA AND THEN PASSES TO THE AMA, AND BECOME A VERY POWERFUL INSTITUTION AND LESS POWERFUL NOW.

THOSE SYSTEMS WERE PUT IN PLACE TO PROTECT AMERICAN DOCTORS AGAINST THE SOCIALIZED MEDICINE EVEN AS THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SAYING WE NEED TO KEEP AWAY FROM THIS RECOGNIZE THAT IT WOULD LEAD TO IMPROVE PATIENT OUTCOMES AND CARE BUT THEIR CONCERN IS IT REDUCES DOCTOR'S INCOME AND STATUS AND MIGHT MAKE THEN SECONDARY ACTORS RATHER THAN PRIMARY.

WHAT WE SEE NOW IS A CONSEQUENCE OF THAT AND HEALTH SYSTEMS.

THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF HEALTH IN ANY DONE TEXT AND NATIONAL CONTEXT IS NOT HEALTH CARE IT'S THE PREVENTIVE SYSTEMS THAT SUPPLY THE BASIS FOR PUBLIC HEALTH.

THOSE ARE FUNDAMENTALLY ENTER WOVEN WITH BASIC SOCIAL SERVICES LIKE HOUSING, ET CETERA.

WHAT YOU HAVE IS A MEDICAL PROFESSION THAT ADVOCATED FOR ITSELF FOR SO LONG AND OBTAIN SOD MUCH POWER AND IT HAS CAN -- CANNIBALIZED PUBLIC HEALTH.

DOCTORS ARE LEADINGEXPERTS.

80 TO 90% OF RELATIVE KNOWLEDGE IS NOT WITHIN THE MEDICAL FIELD.

IT'S NO LABOR HISTORY, SOCIOLOGY, COMMUNICATIONS, ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE.

WHY ARE THESE PEOPLE AND IT'S ALSO IN THE KNOWLEDGE THAT COMMUNITY WHOSE ARE EXCLUDED FROM OUR CURRENT SYSTEM HAVE ABOUT THE OBSTACLES THEY FACE.

THEY KNOW HOW TO DESIGN SYSTEMS FROM THE BOTTOM UP, WHICH IS HOW YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO DESIGN PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEMS TO BE EFFECTIVE.

>> THERE IS A GROUP OF DOCTORS THAT HAS BEEN SAYING THIS FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

THEY'RE BLACK DOCTORS.

OKAY?

BLACK DOCTORS LIKE IN THE NATIONAL MEDICAL ASSOCIATION FORMED BECAUSE THE AMA, THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION WOULDN'T ALLOW BLACK DOCTORS TO JOIN AND SOME CASES THEY EXCLUDED THEM FROM PRIVILEGES AT WHITE HOSPITALS.

BLACK DOCTORS HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR QUITE SOMETIME.

IN FACT, FOR DECADES.

WHY HAVEN'T THE OTHER FOLKS IN THE PROFESSION LISTENED TO THEM.

>> THIS COULD BE AN IMPORTANT POINT.

WHENEVER YOU DESIGN ANY SYSTEM, YOU HAVE TO DESIGN IT FROM THE BOTTOM UP.

NOT JUST PUBLIC HEALTH.

TO MAKE IT BE ETHICAL AND ACCOUNTABLE, IT SHOULD BE LOOKING AT THOSE WITH HISTORICALLY THE MOST EXCLUDED AND EMPOWERING THEM TO LEAD THE FIELD FOR IT TO BE LESS EXCLUSIVE AND BETTER.

I THINK BLACK DOCTORS IN THE U.S. HAVE A VERY IMPORTANT POSITION AND THEY ARE LEVERAGING IT.

A COLLEAGUE OF MINE ISAMA TO TRY TO PROMOTE HEALTH EQUITY.

THERE ARE LIMITS TO WORKING WITHIN SUCH POWERFUL INSTITUTIONS WHOSE MOTIVATION IS NOT NECESSARILY ANY LINED WITH THIS.

THIS IS WHAT BLACK DOCTORS AND PROGRESSIVE DOCTORS FACE.

WE CAN ADVOCATE BUT IF WE'RE WORKING WITHIN EXTREMELY POWERFUL SYSTEMS AND MAJORITY OF PHYSICIANS DO NOT ACTIVELY JOIN US, IT'S HARD TO UP END THE POWER STRUCTURE AND MUCH EASIER FOR THEM TO ABSORB INTO POSITIONS OF LEADERSHIP AND IN THE PROCESS SILENCE THEM.

I DON'T MEAN THE DOCTORS THEMSELVES HAVE BAD MOTIVATIONS AND REALIZE THIS IS HAPPENING.

THIS IS A STRUCTURAL FORCE.

WE SEE THIS ALL THE TIME.

>> THAT'S WHY YOU ADVOCATE FOR DOCTORS UNIONIZING.

I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU SUGGEST IN YOUR PIECE IS DOCTORS SHOULD UNIONIZE.

I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW THAT ACTUALLY WORKS AND FRANKLY, I AM KERR YOULS HOW YOU OVERCOME THIS CULTURAL RESISTANCE THAT THE PEOPLE CURRENTLY IN THE FIELD HAVE TO THIS.

THEY'RE JUST NOT USED TO THINKING OF THEMSELVES IN THAT WAY SO I'M JUST CURIOUS LIKE WHY YOU THINK UNIONIZING SOLVES THIS PROBLEM.

>> YEAH.

I DON'T.

>> THEY NEED TO ORGANIZE WITH THEIR FIELD AND HEALTH CARE WORKERS.

BEYOND THAT, THEY NEED TO ORGANIZE WITH THE PATIENTS AND COMMUNITIES AND GROUND OURSELVES IN THOSE, NOT IN THE VALUES OF THESE POWERFUL WEALTHY HEALTH CARE INSTITUTIONS PER WHICH WE WORK.

ONE STEP THAT IS IMMEDIATELY ACHIEVABLE THAT DOCTORS CAN TAKE TOWARDS THAT IS ORGANIZE TOGETHER.

>> ARE YOU CONVINCED MOST OF YOUR COLLEAGUES AGREE WITH YOU ON THE PROBLEM?

IF NOT THE SOLUTIONS?

>> I THINK THE DOCTORS OF MY GENERATION, YOUNGER GENERATIONS BY IN LARGE, YES.

THEY AGREE.

I THINK THE DOCTORS WHO HAVE BEEN IN THIS SYSTEM AND REWARDED FOR LOYALTY TO THE SYSTEM FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND I THINK THEY'RE WONDERFUL HUMAN BEINGS, MANY OF THEM.

I DON'T MEAN THEY'RE BAD PEOPLE BUT THERE IS A STRUCTURAL DETERMINATION OF HOW THEY SEE THE WORLD.

THIS IS PART OF MEDICAL IDEOLOGY, THE THING THAT'S COLLAPSING.

THE STORY WE TOLD OURSELVES IS SO CORE TO THE IDENTITY, THEIR MORAL IDENTITY TO THE WORLD AND ETHICALIDENTITY.

WHEN THEY RECOGNIZE THERE IS A LEVEL OF RESPONSIBILITY FOR ENORMOUS HARM THAT'S BEEN DONE, I THINK IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.

I THINK WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO BRING THESE PEOPLE IN IN A WAY THAT'S GENTLE IN SOME KIND OF WAY AND ALSO BEING VERY HARD ABOUT THE REALITY WE HAVE TO FACE AND DO THIS NOT JUST FOR OUR MORAL INTEGRITY BUT BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE DYING LITERALLY EVERY DAY WE REFUSE TO CONFRONT THIS.

>> DR. REINHART, DOCTOR SHOWS ARE A STAPLE OF TELEVISION.

DOCTOR SHOWS ON TELEVISION ARE JUST FILLED WITH THESE KINDS OF STORY LINES.

YOU KNOW, THEY'RE FILLED WITH THE IDEALISTIC YOUNG DOCTOR WHO COMES IN AND SAYS WELL, THIS ISN'T RIGHT, YOU KNOW, THIS PERSON NEEDS HEALTH CARE AND I CAN'T DO IT AND THEY FIGHT THE SYSTEM AND THEN THEY GO DOWN IN FLAMES.

IT IS INTERESTING THAT AS A CULTURE WE KIND OF ACCEPT THAT STORY.

BUT WE DON'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

I WAS JUST CURIOUS WHAT YOU THINK OF THAT, IF YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> I THINK IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

THAT'S A REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT POINT AND I THINK A LOT OF REALLY YOUNG DOCTORS HOLD ONTO THE IDEAS OF EQUITY OR JUSTICE.

THEY HATE IT WHEN THEY HAVE TO EXCLUDE PATIENTS FROM CARE AND THERE IS A DEDICATION TO THE IDEA OF THE GREAT DOCTOR, THE GREAT HUMANITARIAN TO SACRIFICE THEMSELVES AND THIS IS WHY WE'RE EASILY EXPLOITED.

MANY PEOPLE IN THE FIELD ARE VERY IDEALISTIC.

THEY ARE HAPPY TO WORK 120 HOURS A WEEK IF THEY THINK THAT IT MATTERS.

I MEAN, I OFTEN WORK OVER 120 HOURS A WEEK BECAUSE I THINK IT MATTERS.

NOT ALL THAT IS CLINICAL.

BUT THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS SOMETHING THAT A PHYSICIAN POINTED OUT PART OF THE SOCIAL MEDIA TRADITION.

HE GAVE A SPEECH IN 1960, WE CALL THE REVOLUTIONARY MEDICINE, HE DESCRIBED HIS OWN BIOGRAPHY AND HE SAID I TRAIN AS A DOCTOR AND HAD THIS VISION OF MYSELF WHO REDEEMED THE WORLD IN FRONT OF ME AND OVER TIME, I REALIZED THAT THAT FANTASY IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

IT'S NOT INDIVIDUAL HEROES WHO ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO THE WORK THAT WE NEED TO DO.

WE HAVE TO BIND TOGETHER AS A COLLECTIVE AND NOT JUST AS A COLLECTIVE OF DOCTORS BUT A COLLECTIVE WELL BEYOND THAT.

OUR RIGHTS ABOUT THE ENTIRE POPULATION WORKING ON ITSELF, THAT WOULD BE CARING FOR IT AND REVOLUTIONARY MEDICINE.

YOU CAN'T HAVE REVOLUTIONARY MEDICINE FROM A SINGLE DOCTOR OR HOSPITAL.

IT HAS TO BE A COLLECTIVE MOBILIZATION.

>> IS THERE ANY PART OF YOU THAT'S BURNED OUT AND DEMORALIZED AND IF SO, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO YOURSELF TO GET UP IN THE MORNING?

>> IT'S THOSE RELATIONSHIPS WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING EVERY DAY TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS THAT I'M THINKING ABOUT ALL THE TIME EVEN AS I WORK IN THE HOSPITAL AND CAN'T ADDRESS THEM.

IT'S MY RELATIONSHIPS FROM MY DECADE OF WORK IN THE SOUTH AND WEST SIDES OF CHICAGO AND PEOPLE SUFFERING FROM HEALTH CARE EXCLUSION, WHO CAN'T GET ACCESS TO HOUSING.

I LEAVE THE HOSPITAL AND I AM DEMORALIZED VERY OFTEN.

I'M FRUSTRATED I COULDN'T DO BETTER BY MY PATIENTS AND DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES AND THEN I GET A CALL FROM SOMEBODY THAT WANTS ME TO VISIT THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE HAVING A DIFFICULT DAY.

THAT IS WHAT GIVES ME A SENSE OF MEANING AND CONTINUATION.

SO I THINK THAT'S HOW WE COUNTER DEMORALIZATION.

WE BOND TOGETHER IN RELATIONSHIPS AND COLLECTIVE MOVEMENTS TO MAKE THINGS BETTER.

>> THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

>>> FINALLY, AWARD SEASON IS IN FULL SWING.

LAST NIGHT THE RED CARPET WAS ROLLED OUT FOR THE BRITISH ACADEMY FILM AWARDS.

DOMINATING THE EVENT WITH SEVEN WINS INCLUDING BEST PICTURE AND BEST DIRECTOR, THE ANTI WAR FILM ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT SET IN THE TRENCHES OF WORLD WAR I.

THE FILM IS BASED ON A 1929 NOVEL AND THE DIRECTOR EDWARD BURGER RECENTLY SPOKE WITH CHRISTIANE ABOUT WHY HE WAS MOTIVATED TO TAKE ON THIS CLASSIC.

>> OBVIOUSLY, IN GERMANY, WE GROW UP WITH THE INHERITANCE, WITH THE DNA OF WAR, OF WHAT GERMANY BROUGHT TO THE WORLD AND SO I ALWAYS FEEL A DEEP SENSE OF GUILT OR SHAME AND RESPONSIBILITY TOWARDS THAT HISTORY TO TALK ABOUT THAT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DON'T FORGET WHAT WE DID.

>> ANOTHER WINNER, THE CNN FILM "NAVALNY" BEST DOCUMENTARY ABOUT THE POISONING OF RUSSIAN OPPOSITION LEADER ALEXI NAVALNY WHO IS CURRENTLY IN JAIL.

THIS IS WHAT HIS DAUGHTER DOSHA HAD TO SAY WHEN SHE WAS ON THE RED CARPET IN LONDON.

>> THANKS TO OUR AMAZING, INCREDIBLE, VERY PASSIONATE, VERY TALENTED TEAM WE'RE HERE.

I'M VERY HAPPY THE STORY ABOUT MY FATHER AND ABOUT THE WORK THAT HE'S DOING IS GETTING NOTICED.

IT'S AMAZING.

>> I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER TO FIGHT FOR YOUR FREEDOM AND FOR DEMOCRACY AROUND THE WORLD.

YOU KNOW, I'M HERE NOW AND STUDY AT STANFORD IN THE UNITED STATES AND NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE REMEMBERED THAT RUSSIA IS NOT A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY AND WE'RE REALLY TRYING TO APPLY FOR THE FREEDOM OF THE PEOPLE THERE.

>> AND NEXT MONTH, IT'S THE OSCARS.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.