February 21, 2023 - PBS NewsHour full episode

AMNA NAWAZ: Good evening, and welcome.

I'm Amna Nawaz.

GEOFF BENNETT: And I'm Geoff Bennett in East Palestine, Ohio, where I spoke with Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw, who said the company would stay as long as it takes to clean up after the derailment, as he defended its response.

ALAN SHAW, President and CEO, Norfolk Southern: Well, there's been hundreds of tests, and there have been thousands of data points, and they have all come back with the same result that says the air and the water are clean.

AMNA NAWAZ: On a trip to Poland, President Biden rallies support for Ukraine, while Vladimir Putin rants against the West, as Russia's brutal invasion nears the one-year mark.

And a new strain of avian flu that shows strong transmissibility among mammals raises concerns of a potential pandemic.

(BREAK) AMNA NAWAZ: We have two major stories this evening.

As the one-year anniversary of the war in Ukraine approaches, Presidents Biden and Putin deliver dueling speeches reflecting a sharp divide in the conflict, with no end in sight.

We will get to that shortly.

But we begin in Ohio.

The federal government today ordered the company Norfolk Southern to clean up contaminated soil and water at their train derailment site in East Palestine, Ohio.

The derailment more than two weeks ago led officials to carry out a so-called controlled release of toxic chemicals, forcing thousands to evacuate.

Since then, returning residents say they're feeling the effects of air and water contamination.

Geoff is in East Palestine, Ohio, tonight - - Geoff.

GEOFF BENNETT: Amna, Biden administration officials, plus the governors of Ohio and Pennsylvania, were on the ground today assuring residents here that everything is being done to clean up the area and hold Norfolk Southern, the train's operator, accountable.

MAN: Here's to you.

OK. GEOFF BENNETT: In his second trip to East Palestine in less than a week, EPA Administrator Michael Regan visited residents near the site of the derailment along the Ohio-Pennsylvania border, part of a push today by the Biden administration to ramp up the response to the disaster.

Regan was joined by Ohio Governor Mike DeWine, as they visited a health clinic that opened today to evaluate residents worried about symptoms from the chemicals released during and after the derailment.

The EPA today also took charge of the cleanup effort, ordering Norfolk Southern to pay for it, including houses and businesses near the crash site, the EPA citing a federal law which gives it the authority to force polluters to pay.

What exactly are you requiring them to do?

MICHAEL REGAN, Environmental Protection Agency Administrator: You know, we're requiring them to submit a very prescriptive work plan that lays out every single step that they plan to take to clean up the soil, any kind of water contamination, how they plan to transport that waste.

And we're going to force them to show went for community meetings and explain themselves to the community.

GEOFF BENNETT: The National Transportation Safety Board is still in the early stages of investigating the cause of the derailment.

But, today, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg proposed a series of reforms to increase rail safety, including speeding up a 2029 deadline for stronger railcars, adding more personnel on trains and paid sick leave for crews, asking Congress for higher penalties for companies that break the rules, and revising regulations on train breaks and hazardous materials.

As the Biden administration is focused on reforms, for many in East Palestine, they're still racked with anger and fear.

BARB KUGLER, Resident of East Palestine, Ohio: I came outside, and I could see right away the main fire at the end of the street.

GEOFF BENNETT: Fifty-two-year-old Barb Kugler lives right next to the crash site.

After the derailment, she evacuated for nearly a week, but has now returned home.

She says she's nervous for this village in which she's lived for some 30 years.

BARB KUGLER: It breaks my heart to go down the road and to see people who rent homes and are moving out right -- right now.

And I just hate to see that happen.

But, no, I don't think it'll ever be the same.

I just -- I just don't.

GEOFF BENNETT: Over the weekend, volunteers handed out bottled water to anyone who asked.

While state officials have said the municipal water is safe, they urge those nearby the crash site who rely on private wells to drink bottled water.

Norfolk Southern is also cleaning up local waterways where the release of hazardous chemicals resulted in 3,500 dead fish.

As the cleanup continues, for some residents here, the worry is that the damage from exposure to toxic chemicals is already done; 71-year-old Daniel Clements lives about two miles from the derailment site.

DANIEL CLEMENTS, East Palestine, Ohio, Resident: These things are carcinogenic.

And that's the kind of damage where you're exposed, and something -- you may not notice anything for 5, 10, 15, even 20 years, and then, suddenly, you're really ill, and maybe even your last illness.

And that's worrisome.

It's terrifying.

GEOFF BENNETT: Clements says he's staying put for the time being and says Norfolk Southern needs to make it right.

DANIEL CLEMENTS: They have to fix this.

And some of the things that we need to do here, we can't fix ourselves.

I'm not capable of cleaning up toxins.

I'm not capable of reestablishing an economy.

I'm not capable of keeping businesses open.

I don't have those skills.

That's what the town needs.

GEOFF BENNETT: Residents here still have questions about whether the air and water are safe and about the company's commitment to address the long-term consequences of the derailment and spill.

Alan Shaw is the CEO of Norfolk Southern.

I spoke with him earlier today to get some answers.

Alan Shaw, thank you for speaking with us.

ALAN SHAW, President and CEO, Norfolk Southern: You're welcome.

GEOFF BENNETT: How long will Norfolk Southern maintain a presence in East Palestine?

ALAN SHAW: As long as it takes.

Yes, we're going to see this thing through.

That's my commitment to the community of East Palestine.

We're going to invest in the environmental cleanup.

We have made a lot of progress.

We have got air monitoring, water monitoring.

We're coordinating with the Ohio EPA.

We're continuing to provide financial assistance for the citizens of this community.

So far, we have either reimbursed or committed $6.5 million to the citizens of this community.

And that's a down payment.

And we're going to invest in this community for the long haul and help this community recover and help this community thrive.

GEOFF BENNETT: When you say the $6.5 million is a down payment, as you know, the average income for an East Palestine family is less than $45,000 a year.

We have talked to people who say they need Norfolk Southern to pay their medical expenses, to pay their moving expenses, and to pay for independent testing of wells and soil and air.

Is that something that you would commit to?

ALAN SHAW: We have stood up a lot of testing.

Within an hour of the derailment, we had air testing.

Within a couple hours of the derailment, we have had water testing.

There is independent testing going on right now with the Ohio EPA and with local health officials.

And there's been hundreds of tests, and there have been thousands of data points, and they have all come back with the same result that says the air and the water are clean.

And we're setting up long-term monitoring.

And we intend to be here for the long haul and continue to support this community.

GEOFF BENNETT: A question about rail safety, because, in November and December, Norfolk Southern met with federal regulators and pushed back against this proposed rule that would have, in most cases, mandated at least two crew members on trains.

Why did Norfolk Southern spend so much money, millions upon millions of dollars, lobbying against it?

ALAN SHAW: What we're really interested in is solution-based safety rules.

And we're very focused on following the science.

And with respect to this accident, the National Transportation Safety Board, as you know, they're in charge of this investigation.

And I'm very much looking forward to their results of their investigation.

Once we have that, we're going to sit down and we're going to figure out what we could have done better.

As you can imagine, every day since this occurred, I have been asking myself, what could we have done better?

What could we have done to prevent this?

So, we are fully cooperating with the NTSB and the FRA on finding out what happened here.

And we're going to make Norfolk Southern and the industry a safer railroad.

GEOFF BENNETT: Following this derailment, would Norfolk Southern support having more crew members on trains, not fewer?

This one had three crew members, an engineer, a conductor, a conductor trainee.

If there had only been one crew member on board, I'm told that, as bad as this was, it would have been even worse.

ALAN SHAW: I think it's really important that we let the NTSB continue with this process.

And there's a lot of speculation out there.

And in a very unusual moment, the chair of the NTSB, Chair Homendy, came out with a statement last Thursday urging everyone not to speculate on the cause of this or what could have mitigated it.

And so we're going to wait and see the results.

We trust the NTSB.

We trusted the FRA.

And I'm looking forward to sitting down with our regulators and our elected officials after - - after we get the results and working out solutions to make Norfolk Southern and the rail industry safer.

GEOFF BENNETT: What's your assessment of the latest rail safety rules proposed by Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg?

He's calling for safer tank standards, higher fines potentially for incidents like these.

ALAN SHAW: Yes, I have talked to Secretary Buttigieg about this a couple of times, as you can imagine.

And he's been very clear with me his frustration over this.

My commitment to Secretary Buttigieg is the same as my commitment to the citizens of this community.

We're going to continue with the environmental remediation.

We have got air monitoring, water monitoring set up.

We have long-term plans for monitoring.

GEOFF BENNETT: The rate of accidents on Norfolk Southern railways have increased in each of the last four years.

There was a derailment in Detroit just this past week.

At the same time, Norfolk Southern has seen record profits.

And so there's this question that the company is putting profits over safety.

Secretary Buttigieg had said much the same thing.

How do you respond to that?

ALAN SHAW: Safety is part of our culture, and it's clear that our safety culture and our investments in safety did not prevent this accident.

So we're going to take a look at what occurred here and see what we can do to make Norfolk Southern a safer railroad.

But we invest over a billion dollars a year in maintaining our network and equipment and in technology to make us safer.

GEOFF BENNETT: Over the past five years, Norfolk Southern paid shareholders nearly $18 billion through stock buybacks and dividends, twice as much as the railroad invested in operations and its own rail.

How do you account for that, making the case that the railroad is focused on safety, when you're spending twice as much money on shareholders?

ALAN SHAW: We're extremely focused on safety.

And over the long term, you have seen reductions in derailments and hazardous material releases and in injuries.

This is clearly a situation where our safety culture and our investments in safety did not prevent this accident.

And so I'm looking forward to seeing the results from the NTSB to see what we can do better.

GEOFF BENNETT: If you lived in East Palestine, would you feel comfortable moving back?

ALAN SHAW: Oh, absolutely.

I have been here several times, and I'm drinking the water.

And I have eaten the food as I have sat down with residents of the community and heard their concerns.

I know that the testing is showing that the air is safe and the water is safe.

I also know that this community is frustrated.

When I talk to the families here, they're scared.

There's a lot of misinformation out there.

They want to know that Norfolk Southern is going to be here for the long term, which we are.

GEOFF BENNETT: Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw, thanks for your time.

ALAN SHAW: Thank you, Geoff.

AMNA NAWAZ: Now to our other major story, one year on since Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

The two men in charge of the world's law largest nuclear arsenals faced off rhetorically today, President Biden in Warsaw before a rousing crowd, and Russian President Putin in Moscow in front of an orderly audience of his lieutenants and supporters.

Again with the support of the Pulitzer Center, Nick Schifrin reports from Ukraine.

JOE BIDEN, President of the United States: Hello, Poland!

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) NICK SCHIFRIN: In an Eastern European capital neighboring the largest war in 80 years, President Biden today spoke in the language of civilizational conflict.

JOE BIDEN: The principles and the stakes are eternal, a choice between chaos and stability, between building and destroying, between hope and fear,between democracy that lifts up the human spirit and the brutal hand of the dictator who crushes it.

NICK SCHIFRIN: U.S. officials said before the speech President Biden would not get in a tit for tat, but he clearly targeted one man.

JOE BIDEN: The West was not plotting to attack Russia, as Putin said today.

This war was never a necessity; it's a tragedy.

President Putin chose this war.

Every day the war continues is his choice.

He could end the war with a word.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Poland was among the first Eastern Bloc countries to join NATO.

Today, Biden reiterated the U.S.' commitment to NATO's collective defense and vowed democracy would prevail over autocracy.

JOE BIDEN: President Putin's craven lust for land and power will fail.

And the Ukrainian people's love for their country will prevail.

Democracies of the world will stand guard over freedom today, tomorrow, and forever.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Eleven hundred miles east and eight hours earlier, President Putin had his own audience and blamed the war in Ukraine mostly on the West.

VLADIMIR PUTIN, Russian President (through translator): The responsibility for fomenting the Ukrainian conflict, for its escalation and for the increasing number of victims lies entirely with Western elites, and, of course, the current regime in Kyiv, for which the Ukrainian people are essentially strangers.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Putin announced Russia was suspending participation in the New Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty, or New START.

It's the final bilateral arms control treaty that applies to long-range city-destroying nuclear weapons.

New START limits Russia and the U.S.' deployed nuclear warheads and includes extensive verification measures.

U.S. officials had already accused Russia of blocking some of those measures.

And, tonight, the Russian Foreign Ministry said it would, in fact, respect New START requirements.

But in his 100-minute-long speech today, Putin also said he would put nuclear systems on what he called combat duty.

VLADIMIR PUTIN (through translator): What is important is that Russia-U.S. relations have deteriorated.

The responsibility for that is fully with the United States.

It was them who started revising the post-World War II arrangements after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

They started to build the world in the American way, with just one master, one lord.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Today, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said Putin's announcements had made the world a more dangerous place.

JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO Secretary-General: With today's decision on New START, the whole arms control architecture has been dismantled.

I'm calling on Russia today to reconsider its decision to suspend its participation in the New START agreement.

NICK SCHIFRIN: But what is clear, Putin is not reconsidering the war in Ukraine.

Today, Russian rockets struck in the middle of one of the largest cities in Ukraine's south.

At least six died in a war that Biden today called Putin's choice and Putin called a necessity.

As for President Putin's response to President Biden speech, we will have to wait for the morning for that.

But, earlier today, Putin's spokesman said that Putin wouldn't even watch Biden's speech and would instead rely on a summary of it prepared by his staff -- Amna.

AMNA NAWAZ: Nick Schifrin once again in Ukraine for us tonight.

Nick, thank you.

In the day's other headlines: The Biden administration formally proposed barring asylum seekers at the Southern border unless they first ask for asylum in a country they pass through.

It's something the Trump administration tried, but was blocked in court.

The rule is meant to deter border crossings once pandemic era restrictions finally end.

Wall Street had its worst day in two months, as concerns over interest rates and profits worried investors.

The Dow Jones industrial average lost nearly 700 points, 2 percent, to close at 33129.

The Nasdaq fell 2.5 percent.

The S&P 500 also gave up 2 percent.

Secretary of State Antony Blinken says it's up to Iran to end the deadlock over restoring the 2015 nuclear deal.

An agreement could curb Tehran's nuclear activities in exchange for lifting sanctions.

But, in Greece today, Blinken accused Iran of stalling talks while advancing its weapons program.

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. Secretary of State: With regard to the nuclear program, the most effective sustainable way to deal with the challenge it poses is through diplomacy.

But, in this moment, those efforts are on the back burner because Iran is simply not engaged in a meaningful way.

AMNA NAWAZ: Blinken also cited Iran's decision to supply attack drones to Russia and its violent suppression of pro-democracy protests at home.

Deaths from the earthquakes in Turkey and Syria climbed past 47,000 today.

That included at least eight people killed in Monday's latest tremor.

The quakes over the last two weeks have left ruined landscapes along the border region.

Hundreds of thousands of people are now homeless.

Back in this country, former Mexican public security chief Genaro Garcia Luna was found guilty today of taking huge bribes to shield drug cartels.

A federal jury returned that verdict in New York.

Garcia Luna is the highest-ranking current or former Mexican official ever tried in the United States.

A federal judge in New York has barred victims of the 9/11 attacks from seizing billions of dollars of assets from Afghanistan's Central Bank.

The judge ruled today he would first have to find the country's Taliban rulers are legitimate government, but he said he has no power to do that.

An appeal is expected.

In New Orleans, thousands of partygoers packed the streets today for Mardi Gras.

The celebrations followed a fatal shooting on a Sunday night parade.

But, today, the mood was brighter as colorful costumes and dancing filled the parade route.

Some in the crowd dismissed fears of violent crime.

KAMINSKI GARNER, Mardi Gras Attendee: Things like that are going to happen, unfortunately, but I'm trying not to let a couple of bad things block out such a positive event.

You know what I mean?

I see a lot of people out here with their families, little kids, to grandparents.

AMNA NAWAZ: Mardi Gras marks the end of the Carnival season, which began on January 6.

And Democratic Congressman David Cicilline of Rhode Island announced today he is resigning as of June 1.

He will become head of the Rhode Island Foundation, the state's largest funder of nonprofit organizations.

Cicilline has served in Congress for 12 years.

He's on the House Judiciary and Foreign Affairs committees and is co-chair of the LGBTQ+ Equality Caucus.

Still to come on the "NewsHour": the Supreme Court considers rolling back legal immunity for social media companies; a new strain of avian flu sparks concerns over its transmissibility to humans; how a Midwest city's investment in public art mirrors its overall turnaround; plus much more.

As Russia's invasion of Ukraine marks one year and President Putin announces Russia will suspend its participation in the New START Treaty, where does that leave U.S.-Russia relations?

Rose Gottemoeller was the chief U.S. negotiator for that treaty during the Obama administration.

She's now a distinguished lecturer at Stanford University.

And Angela Stent worked in the State Department during the Clinton administration and served as a top intelligence officer on Russia during the administration of George W. Bush.

She's now a professor at Georgetown University.

Welcome to you both.

And, Rose, I want to begin with you.

Just tell me, what is the practical implication of this, of Putin saying that this treaty is being suspended?

What changes immediately?

ROSE GOTTEMOELLER, Former U.S.

Undersecretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Affairs: What has happened during this war in Ukraine is that the Russians have continued to provide the notifications that are vital to the verification regime of the treaty.

Frequently, during the week and sometimes even multiple times a day, they would send the United States notification of the movement of their strategic nuclear forces.

For example, if an ICBM has to go to a maintenance facility, they would have to notify the United States.

And then, when it returns to its deployment base, they would have to notify the United States.

In that way, we had a great 24/7 view of what was going on with the Russian strategic nuclear forces, and they as well, of course.

They had, I would say, reciprocal rights under the treaty.

But they have now suspended those rights on their own recognizance.

AMNA NAWAZ: So, Rose, does that mean the U.S. has less of an ability to know when Russia is moving its nuclear weapons and if they could potentially use one?

ROSE GOTTEMOELLER: I think it's important to know that our knowledge of Russian readiness is very much dependent on our so-called national technical means, our overhead satellites, our radars, all the capabilities that we have of our intelligence establishment.

So it's not as if we are left blind by this action.

But the mutual predictability that comes from the treaty really helps us to have that 24/7 understanding, backed up, of course, by what we know from our own intelligence.

AMNA NAWAZ: Angela, what about the timing and the intent of all this?

Why would President Putin be delivering this particular message at this particular point in time?

ANGELA STENT, Director, Center for Eurasian, Russian and East European Studies, Georgetown University: Well, he skipped his address to the federal assembly last year.

And so it was really timed to address the Russian nation and also foreign listeners.

They knew that the Munich Security Conference was happening when it happened.

They didn't know that President Biden was going to visit Kyiv until a couple of hours before he did.

But Putin wanted to, first of all, restate all of the myths about the origins of this war, that it's the West's fault, that we didn't negotiate seriously with Russia beforehand, and that the West threatens Russia.

And then he wanted to tell his own people again that this world will continue for a long time.

He said: The Americans want a strategic defeat of Russia, but we cannot be defeated in the battlefield.

So, his message both to his own people and to the international audience is that this war will go on until Russia has achieved its objectives.

But, of course, he hasn't spelled out what those objectives are.

We think it's the -- at least the annexation and full control of these four territories and to get the Ukrainians to recognize it.

But there may be other goals.

He just said: We will continue until we achieve our goals.

And then I think there was also a slight element that would cause concern to the Ukrainians and the outside world, which are the veiled hints that Russia could develop some new nuclear weapons.

There wasn't a direct threat of the use of nuclear weapons, but certainly that this war could escalate because of what the West were doing, so unsettling the outside world and trying to calm his own people, but to tell them, this war is going to go on, and you have to accept it.

AMNA NAWAZ: Rose, to Angela's point, Putin did say their strategic systems have been put on what he called combat duty.

What does that mean to you?

ROSE GOTTEMOELLER: Well, this is something that I think we're all puzzling about, because - - and we have to wait and see if there are any actual changes in the operational status of the strategic nuclear force posture.

A year ago, at the time of the invasion of Ukraine, he also said that the forces were being put on higher alert, but we know for a fact that it actually meant that there were more -- more soldiers in the command posts, that they were upping their level of oversight of what was going on, but they were not actually changing the operational status of their nuclear forces and putting them on higher alert.

That's a very -- to go to a higher alert status is destabilizing.

In many ways, it sends the warning of a possible escalatory action, which I don't think is either in the Russian interests.

But, at the same time, it also is very stressing for the nuclear forces and is something that, on a day-to-day basis, the commanders, of course, do not want to do, because it means that they possibly will be less effective and efficient should they need to be called upon, heaven forbid, of course.

But there are downside operational risks to that kind of approach as well.

But I want to stress, Amna, that I'm not sure at this moment that there are any actual changes in the operational status of the Russian strategic nuclear forces.

AMNA NAWAZ: So why would he make this announcement then, if there are no changes?

ROSE GOTTEMOELLER: I think it's a -- it really echoes what he said a year ago when he was trying to really rattle the nuclear saber and make it clear that this was going to be part of his overall rhetoric throughout this war and that it -- for him, of course, it underscores the seriousness of the threats that Angela outlined in her comments.

AMNA NAWAZ: Angela, on the rattling of the nuclear sabers, we should point out the New START Treaty only relates to strategic and long-range nuclear weapons.

But there has been concerned about Putin potentially using a tactical nuclear weapon in Ukraine.

Do you share that concern?

ANGELA STENT: Well, you can't dismiss it entirely.

But I think Putin has used these threats to intimidate the Ukrainians, to intimidate the outside world, and really to break Western unity on this.

We just saw at the Munich Security Conference how great the Western unity still is a year into this war, and given the fact that European countries particularly have suffered from the economic aftereffects.

But he wants people to believe that he could use a nuclear weapon, a tactical nuclear weapon, particularly were the Ukrainians to try and take back -- take back Crimea.

And we do see, even in the Biden administration, for all of its support of Ukraine, a concern not to take actions or to allow the Ukrainians to take actions that could lead to a Russian nuclear escalation.

So, you can't rule it out, but you shouldn't be intimidated by it.

AMNA NAWAZ: Angela, in terms of where we are now, President Biden just today recommitted support to Ukraine.

He said more sanctions are going to come against Russia.

We just heard Vice President Harris in Munich say that Russia has committed crimes against humanity.

As we're marking one year in the war, does all of this make it more likely for President Putin to negotiate or to be more deeply dug in?

ANGELA STENT: I did not hear anything in his speech today to indicate that he's interested in negotiations, unfortunately.

And I think, again, that was really the mood in Munich too, the understanding that this was not the time for negotiations, because Putin still thinks that he can outlast the West, that Western unity will crack, and that he will force the Ukrainians to make significant territorial concessions.

So, I'm afraid I don't see any time in the near future the possibility for real, genuine negotiations.

AMNA NAWAZ: Rose, I will give you the last word here.

What's your take?

ROSE GOTTEMOELLER: My take is that we really need to do everything we can, the United States of America, as well as other countries around the world.

The Chinese, for example, have an interest in the Russians of staying in the New START Treaty, so that there is a good deal of predictability and stability between the two biggest nuclear powers, the United States and Russia.

Of course, we're all worried about Chinese modernization, but I think it's in the general interest of the nuclear weapons states, as well as the non-nuclear weapons states around the world, to get the message out there that the strategic nuclear arms treaties that we have had now for 50 years have served a good, really strong strategic purpose.

AMNA NAWAZ: That is Rose Gottemoeller and Angela Stent joining us tonight.

Thank you both for your time and insights.

ANGELA STENT: Thank you.

ROSE GOTTEMOELLER: Thank you.

AMNA NAWAZ: Today, the Supreme Court heard arguments in a case that has the potential to radically transform the Internet and social media.

John Yang explores the case and its impact.

JOHN YANG: Amna, this case is about a law that protects Web sites from lawsuits over material posted by users.

The family of a student killed in a 2015 ISIS attack in Paris says that immunity should not apply to the recommendations YouTube's algorithms make based on a user's viewing history.

The family says that, by recommending ISIS-related content, YouTube acted as a recruiting platform for the group.

The law, which is often referred to as Section 230, was written in 1996.

That's before Google, before Twitter and before the concerns about the spread of disinformation and hate speech.

Marcia Coyle is the "NewsHour"'s Supreme Court analyst.

She was in the courtroom for today's two-and-a-half-hours of arguments.

And Sheera Frenkel is a tech reporter for The New York Times.

Marcia, I want to start with you.

When the lawyer for the family was making his case, I think confusion seemed to be the word of the day from the -- from the justices.

I looked at the transcript.

It was used five times by both liberal and conservative justices.

They were very -- there was a lot of skepticism about his arguments.

This is Justice Elena Kagan questioning the attorney.

ELENA KAGAN, U.S. Supreme Court Associate Justice: Everybody is trying their best to figure out how the statute, which was a pre-algorithm up statute applies in a pre-algorithm world.

Every time anybody looks at anything on the Internet, there is an algorithm involved.

Does your position send us down the road such that 230 really can't mean anything at all?

ERIC SCHNAPPER, Attorney For Gonzalez: I don't think so, Your Honor.

The question -- as you say, algorithms are ubiquitous.

But the question is, what does the defendant do with the algorithm?

JOHN YANG: Marcia, what's going on there?

MARCIA COYLE: Well, the family's lawyer was responding to Justice Kagan, trying to explain how he viewed these algorithmic recommendations.

And he also-called them thumbnails that YouTube puts on its Web site.

And he said, if these thumbnails encourage access to information or videos, in this case, to ISIS information, and the user has not requested that information, then it falls outside of the statute because it is, in effect, he argues, in service to ISIS.

JOHN YANG: On the other hand, there was a lot of -- there was some skepticism about Google's argument.

This is Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson.

KETANJI BROWN JACKSON, U.S. Supreme Court Associate Justice: Isn't it true that statute had a more narrow scope of immunity than is - - than courts have ultimately interpreted it to have and that what YouTube is arguing here today?

The question today is, well, can we be sued for making recommendations?

That's just not something the statute was directed to.

LISA BLATT, Attorney For Google: That's death by 1,000 cuts.

And the Internet would have never gotten off the ground if anybody could sue every time.

JOHN YANG: So, she's looking at the text of the law.

MARCIA COYLE: She is.

And she sees a narrower immunity for social media platforms.

The Google attorney today is really arguing for the greatest amount of immunity, obviously, for her client and other social media platforms.

And she disagreed with Justice Jackson about the history here.

She said that, even though that Congress at the time that they enacted this may not have referred to algorithmic recommendations, there were analogues to it.

They certainly knew what was coming on the horizon, and were able to address it.

JOHN YANG: Does it seem like the court is not ready to go all the way on either side?

MARCIA COYLE: It did, absolutely.

In fact, I think the bottom line here is, if the court wants to do something with this case, it's going to be drawn into line-drawing.

How far does it go to protect social media platforms, or how far does it have to go to take away some of that immunity?

So it's a line-drawing difficulty.

JOHN YANG: And where to draw that line, Sheera, a couple of justices actually asked out loud whether the Supreme Court was the right place to do that.

This is Justice Brett Kavanaugh.

BRETT KAVANAUGH, U.S. Supreme Court Associate Justice: Isn't it better for -- to keep it the way it is for us, and Congress -- to put the burden on Congress to change that, and they can consider the implications and make these predictive judgments?

JOHN YANG: What has Congress been trying to do about Section 230?

SHEERA FRENKEL, The New York Times: Well, we have a rare situation where almost everyone in Congress is united in thinking that Section 230 is an old law that needs updating.

The problem is that Republicans and Democrats really disagree about the problems.

Republicans are concerned that Internet companies have too much control, in a sense.

They're worried about something they call conservative bias, which is the idea that tech companies routinely censor conservative voices on their channels more than other voices.

Democrats are worried that the companies aren't doing enough about harmful speech and conspiracy theories, things like misinformation around the elections.

Democrats want to see more done on that.

JOHN YANG: Why does the -- changing this law, the prospect of changing this law, make the Internet companies and social media platforms so nervous?

SHEERA FRENKEL: Well, Section 230 has been what's protected them until now.

It's essentially said that they're not publishers.

They're not responsible for what other people say on their platform.

And so it's let them roll out content moderation policies that they see as appropriate.

They decide what's allowed and what's not allowed.

But, if they miss something, such as the case was in this specific trial that's being heard, they are not punished for it.

JOHN YANG: We have a new "PBS NewsHour"/NPR/Marist poll set to be released this week, found that only 29 percent of adults questioned said the government should be the ones setting the rules for social media; 67 percent said it should be left to the social media companies themselves.

I would imagine that's music to Silicon Valley's ears.

SHEERA FRENKEL: Yes, I imagine, if you're sitting at Google or Facebook or Twitter, you're happy to hear that.

I think people are worried, rightfully so, about how the government is going to decide what something like hate speech is.

And depending who controls Congress and who sits in the White House, that could mean something very different to different political parties.

So, there is a reason why people are worried that, if the government makes these decisions, they will become overly politicized.

JOHN YANG: Marcia, this was the first big social media case to come before the court, the first time they had looked at Section 230.

MARCIA COYLE: That's right.

JOHN YANG: A lot more to come.

What's -- there's a case tomorrow.

What's that about?

MARCIA COYLE: It's sort of a sequel to the one today.

The Gonzalez family is part of a case, the case tomorrow, that has two other families that are -- the underlying claim here is that the YouTube, Facebook, Twitter have had recommendations, content that violated or encouraged an act of terror under the Anti-Terrorism Act.

And so that's what the court is going to look at, the elements of that kind of a claim and whether they can be held liable under that specific statute.

John, I should also add that the content moderation that Sheera mentioned, that there are two big cases pending in the Supreme Court right now.

The justices have yet to decide whether to take them.

They're out of Florida and Texas, opposite lower court rulings.

Good chance the court might get into this again.

JOHN YANG: And it would probably be in the term beginning in the fall.

MARCIA COYLE: That's right.

JOHN YANG: Marcia Coyle, "NewsHour"'s Supreme Court analyst, and Sheera Frenkel of The New York Times, thank you both very much.

MARCIA COYLE: Pleasure, John.

SHEERA FRENKEL: Thank you.

AMNA NAWAZ: A highly contagious avian flu is infecting birds all over the globe.

Here in the U.S., farmers have lost or had to kill over 58 million birds to try and prevent the virus' spread.

So far, this flu hasn't caused any serious threat to humans.

But as William Brangham reports, there are several new outbreaks that are raising some alarm.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Thanks, Amna.

Over the last two years, the spread of this strain, known as H5N1, has been largely limited to birds.

But now two particular outbreaks, one among farmed mink in Spain and another among wild sea lions in Peru, suggests that H5N1 might now be able to spread between mammals.

And that's raised concerns about the virus' potential to spread further and perhaps even make humans sick.

Scott Hensley is a professor of microbiology and an influenza researcher at the University of Pennsylvania.

Scott, thank you so much for being here.

Before we get to the mink and the sea lions, can you just remind us how bad H5N1 is among birds all over the world right now?

SCOTT HENSLEY, Penn Institute for Immunology: We have seen H5N1 circulate in birds before.

What makes this current situation unique is how widespread this particular clade of H5N1 virus is spreading.

It's not a good time to be a bird today, because this virus has infected wild bird populations.

And it's also infected domestic birds all across the world.

And, again, the unique thing about this particular virus is, it is getting into bird populations that we have not seen be infected historically with H5 viruses in the past.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Yes, I was actually at an avian center in Minnesota several months ago, and we're seeing eagles and owls and raptors of all kinds getting this virus.

But, with regards to this -- these cases of the sea lions and the mink, those seem to suggest that the virus is now spreading within mammals.

Do you think that that evidence is -- do you think that that's what's happening?

And, if so, why is that a problem?

SCOTT HENSLEY: Yes, so that's exactly what makes us a little bit nervous.

So, these viruses are obviously very good at attaching to avian cells and getting into bird cells and replicating.

We know that because the virus is spreading again very rapidly among birds.

The good news is, is, the virus doesn't appear to be able to replicate in human cells very effectively.

But we have seen cases now, as you just outlined, the virus getting into mink, and there's likely mink-to-mink transmission that have occurred in the situation that we have seen in Spain.

And we see the virus spreading to other mammals as well.

This is alarming, because what we're afraid is that the virus might start changing.

It might undergo acquiring different substitutions that enable better replication in these mammals.

And we're afraid that some of those same substitutions might enable the virus then to attach to human cells more effectively.

Right now, again, the good news is, the virus appears to be very poor at infecting human cells.

But we start to get nervous when we see these essential crossover events, when these avian viruses are getting into other animals.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: There have been, as I have mentioned briefly, some cases where the virus has jumped in, mostly when -- I think of this one case in Colorado where a person was cleaning out a chicken farm that had suffered a big outbreak.

And so that wasn't a human-to-human transmission.

It was just someone getting a big dose of this virus.

What do we know about what this virus does to people if it does get into people?

SCOTT HENSLEY: Well, there -- luckily, there's been very limited number of infections with this particular H5N1 virus.

In the past, H5N1 viruses have been shown to have very high mortality rates.

But, again, in this current outbreak, we have seen a limited number of human infections, mostly with folks who have had very close contact with birds.

And there has not been many serious infections to date.

So, H5N1 certainly has the potential to cause a lot of disease and high mortality rates.

This particular virus does not seem well-adapted at infecting humans.

But this could change, of course, and something that we have to keep our eye on.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So can you help put this into perspective for people?

Those people who might be seeing these reports and being alarmed about this idea of it jumping into humans, how worried should we be?

SCOTT HENSLEY: Look, we don't have to be alarmed right now.

Look, don't run out to your pharmacy and buy 1,000 rolls of toilet paper.

(LAUGHTER) SCOTT HENSLEY: If you see a dead bird or a sick bird, certainly, stay away from it.

It's likely that this virus needs to acquire several substitutions before it can efficiently spread from human to human and start infecting humans.

But we need to remain vigilant.

The research community right now has to come together.

We need to increase funding for surveillance to be able to track this virus in real time.

And we have to understand better what changes this virus needs to have take place for it to jump into the human population.

So, an everyday person right now, again, avoid sick birds.

I think, other than that, there's not a whole lot that you need to do.

But this is the time for the research community to really come together and increase our surveillance efforts and start developing new vaccines in case this virus does jump into humans.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All right, that is Scott Hensley at the University of Pennsylvania.

Thank you so much.

SCOTT HENSLEY: OK.

Thank you for having me.

AMNA NAWAZ: Like cities across the Rust Belt, Fort Wayne, Indiana, endured some tough decades, as manufacturing plants closed, jobs dried up, and the city's population shrank.

But, in recent years, Fort Wayne has made a turnaround and a big investment in public art.

Special correspondent Cat Wise recently spent time with a local artist who is a driving force behind that effort.

Her report is part of our arts and culture series, Canvas.

CAT WISE: Above a busy street in downtown Fort Wayne in a quiet studio apartment, artist Alexandra Hall brings colorful, playful creatures to life with paint and brush.

Hall, who is 37, grew up in Fort Wayne and has been a full-time artist since 2015.

Over the years, she's drawn and painted a variety of subjects, including portraits, still-life, and delightful tipsy frogs.

More recently, she's become known for her large-scale paintings of animals in bright, pattern-filled costumes.

ALEXANDRA HALL, Artist: I am inspired by a lot of different things, travel.

Sometimes, it is a person I see on the sidewalk.

I have for a very long time recreated the things I see into whimsical animals that often have human traits or an anthropomorphized animal.

CAT WISE: Tell me about the dripping of the paint.

Why is that important?

(LAUGHTER) ALEXANDRA HALL: I think that there is a little bit of chaos in every piece.

There needs to be that release of control, that idea that nothing in our life is unchanging and nothing in our life is fully in our control.

I tuck that into because that's been part of my life story and I think its part of most people's life story.

CAT WISE: Her life took an unexpected turn in high school, when she was diagnosed with bone cancer.

ALEXANDRA HALL: Back when I was ill, I was spending a lot of time in bed.

It was really up to me to create the worlds around me and make it interesting.

And so art became that outlet for me, and it's still an outlet for me today.

CAT WISE: After recovering and going to college, Hall began traveling and discovered a love of public art.

ALEXANDRA HALL: When I traveled, I noticed that there were communities that organically have a really strong public art presence.

And I found myself more drawn to those places and those spaces because they have some sort of story to tell.

At the time, I would say, I thought, wow, I can't wait to live in a place like this.

This is -- I want to leave Indiana.

CAT WISE: Hall eventually decided not to leave.

Instead, she's brought public art to her hometown.

ALEXANDRA HALL: So, in the summer, this can be a really cool place to hang out, read a book, and it is a little quieter than the street side.

CAT WISE: In 2016, Hall started a donation-funded organization called Art This Way.

Now a nonprofit that's part of Fort Wayne's Downtown Improvement District, the organization facilitates public art projects on private property and the development of pedestrian-friendly spaces.

ALEXANDRA HALL: We work really hard to make spaces walkable, in the sense that there is art every so often and often enough that you are intrigued and inspired.

CAT WISE: You want to keep going.

ALEXANDRA HALL: And want to keep going, yes.

CAT WISE: She took me on a tour to see some of the 30 large-scale pieces her organization has helped install by local, national, and international artists.

Tell me about this mural.

ALEXANDRA HALL: Right.

So this is Walt Whitman by Tim Parsley.

This is meant to depict the creative brain and the hope that comes from the creative brain.

What we wanted to do with the Art This Way program was create a place where public art could be about anything, and it didn't need to necessarily be about Fort Wayne.

So, give it room to breathe and allow art for art's sake to happen.

CAT WISE: That art, she says, has helped breathe new life into the city, which, during the downturn years, had seen an increase in vacant parking lots and abandoned buildings.

Today, once-stark alleyways are now a destination.

Oh, my goodness.

Tell me about this piece.

ALEXANDRA HALL: So, this is called 77 Steps.

We have seen engagement photos.

People get engaged in this space.

It can be programmed to do a lot of different things.

We will program it for special events and holidays, you name it.

CAT WISE: The community loves it.

(LAUGHTER) ALEXANDRA HALL: Yes, the community loves it.

CAT WISE: Art This Way's projects, including two of Hall's own works, are part of a growing collection of public art throughout the city, nearly 150 pieces, including a new sculpture in honor of Ukraine.

ALEXANDRA HALL: You are supposed to engage with this, like a lot of the works that we install.

You're supposed to be able to touch them.

And, here, you're supposed to stand and be pictured with your crown and your set of wings.

CAT WISE: Events like the annual Art Crawl in September draw locals and visitors and perhaps convince some of those visitors to stay.

BILL BROWN, Former President, Fort Wayne Downtown Improvement District: There's more people moving in than are moving out.

It's there.

It's a big deal.

And that something to be proud of.

CAT WISE: Bill Brown is a retired Fort Wayne business owner and former head of the Downtown Improvement District.

BILL BROWN: Well, we have some outstanding local artists.

CAT WISE: I met him at The Bradley, a new boutique hotel in downtown.

BILL BROWN: What is cool is that The Bradley's been able to embrace them and hang their art.

CAT WISE: He says public art has played a significant role in Fort Wayne's revitalization efforts, which have also included riverfront development and a baseball stadium.

Nationally, a 2018 survey by the nonprofit Americans For the Arts found that 70 percent of Americans believe that the arts improve the image and identity of their community.

In Indiana, arts and culture is a $7.6 billion industry which supports more than 78,000 jobs.

Brown says, in Fort Wayne, nearly everyone is on board now with public art, but it took some time to get there.

BILL BROWN: I think the change was the realization that the arts can drive economic development.

I think that -- kind of that show me kind of thing, a conservative community, once they trust, they are all in.

And that's where I think, with people like Alex, it is about performance, trust, and talent.

CAT WISE: Hall and other Fort Wayne artists have been building on that trust and expanding their impact, like Theoplis Smith, who goes by the artistic name Phresh Laundry.

I met him at his new mural in the entrance tunnel to Electric Works, the recently renovated former campus of General Electric that was vacant for years.

Smith, an internationally recognized artist whose work can be seen throughout Fort Wayne, including at The Bradley Hotel, has high hopes for his city.

THEOPLIS SMITH, Artist: I want this to be like a mecca in the North region to see the arts flourished.

Being the second largest city in Indiana, the economy is growing.

You have people in all walks of life coming into Fort Wayne to see what we have to offer.

We want to make sure we are screaming and echoing arts.

CAT WISE: But, as his city grows, he wants to make sure everyone is included and able to access the arts.

THEOPLIS SMITH: You have your fine line between gentrification vs. revitalization.

It makes sure that you have the right people at the table to make it cohesive.

You want people to feel invited, feel welcome, feel, I belong here.

CAT WISE: Hall also wants to make public art more accessible.

ALEXANDRA HALL: What we have created is the huge melting pot of street art.

We are seeing lots of diversity in the cultures and ethnicities and where someone is from, Brazil, Germany, you name it.

CAT WISE: She's now consulting with communities outside of Fort Wayne.

And, over the past three years, she's led more than three dozen projects in rural towns in Indiana, New York, and Pennsylvania.

And while she still loves to travel, she has no plans to leave her hometown.

For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Cat Wise in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

AMNA NAWAZ: Remember, there's a lot more online at PBS.org/NewsHour, including a conversation about how advocates for harm reduction are working to combat a nationwide spike in fentanyl overdoses.

And join us again here tomorrow night for the first installment of Judy Woodruff's series America at a Crossroads exploring what is dividing the nation.

And that is the "NewsHour" for tonight.

I'm Amna Nawaz.

On behalf of the entire "NewsHour" team, thank you for joining us.