March 1, 2023

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> IN ISLAM MAKE HUMAN RIGHTS IS ONE OF THE FUND MENTAL ISSUES.

>> I GET AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH THE FOREIGN MINISTER ON THE GLOBAL CONDEMN NATION OVER IRAN'S HUMAN RIGHTS AND LATEST FEARS THAT THE COUNTRY COULD BE EVEN CLOSER TO NUCLEAR BREAKOUT.

THEN.

>> SO THESE CHILDREN ARE ESSENTIALLY BEING HELD HOSTAGE.

>> YES.

>> WE SPEAK ABOUT RUSSIA'S SCHEME TO FORCIBLY KIDNAP AND ADOPT THOUSANDS OF MINORS FROM UKRAINE.

WITH THE PRESIDENT OF MISSING CHILDREN EUROPE.

>>> AND.

>> THE SMUGGLERS EXACERBATE THE MESSAGE.

THEY'RE LIKE USED CAR DEALERS TO SAY THE SALE WILL EXPIRE AT THE END OF THE WEEK.

YOU GOT TO GO NOW.

THERE IS A FEEDING FRENZY.

>> THE CRISIS AT AMERICA'S SOUTHERN BORDER.

FORMER SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY JAY JOHNSON JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN.

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>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

WORRYING NEWS FROM IRAN WHERE THE WATCHDOG FOUND URANIUM AT A NUCLEAR FACILITY.

CNN HAS SEEN A URANIUM PARTICLES ENRICHED CLOSE TO MAKE A NUCLEAR BOMB AND COMES AMID ALARMING ALLEGATIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS BY THE REGIME AGAINST PROTESTERS AND ACCOUNTS OF TORTURE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT AT THE HANDS OF EVEN REVOLUTIONARY GUARD.

MEANWHILE, IRAN IS SUSPECTED OF SENDING ATTACK DRONES TO RUSSIA.

FOREIGN MINISTER IS IN GENEVA THIS WEEK SPEAKING AT THE U.N. HUMAN RIGHTS COUNSEL AND IN A RARE INTERVIEW SINCE THE DEATH OF THE WOMAN ROCKED HIS COUNTRY, I SAT DOWN FOR A CHALLENGING CONVERSATION.

FOREIGN MINISTER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> Translator: IN THE COMPASSIONATE, THE MERCIFUL, I'M READY TO ASK YOUR QUESTIONS.

>> LET ME START BY THE FACT YOU'RE HERE.

YOU GAVE A SPEECH TO THE HUMAN RIGHTS COUNSEL OF THE U.N. YOU KNOW THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE THAT WONDERED WHY YOU WOULD BE GIVING A HUMAN RIGHTS SPEECH GIVEN WHAT IS GOING ON IN YOUR COUNTRY.

YOU DID ACTUALLY SAY NO COUNTRY CAN CLAIM TO IMPLEMENT HUMAN RIGHTS PERFECTLY.

SO I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER YOU ADMIT THAT IRAN HAS REALLY CRACKED DOWN, HAS NOT JUST NOT IMPLEMENTED HUMAN RIGHTS BUT KILLED PEOPLE.

THERE ARE REPORTS OF PRISONERS AND ORDINARY PROTESTERS HAVING BEEN ASSAULTED SEXUALLY, HAVING BEEN TORTURED.

WE'VE SEEN PICTURES OF POLICE AND OTHER SECURITY FORCES USING LIVE FIRE AGAINST FORCEFUL PROTESTERS.

IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN WHEN YOU SAY NO COUNTRY CAN CLAIM TO IMPLEMENT HUMAN RIGHTS PERFECTLY?

>> Translator: YOU'RE OF IRANIAN HERITAGE LIKE I AM.

IN THE IRANIAN CIVILIZATION AND OVER THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF IRANIAN HISTORY, WE HAVE HUMAN RIGHTS ENSKRIPGSS ON STONES FROM IRAN.

IRAN IS THE FIRST COUNTRY WITH HUMAN RIGHTS INSCRIPTIONS IN MUSEUMS AND AROUND THE WORLD.

IN THE RELIGIOUS AND ISLAMIC WORLDS, IT IS A HUMAN ISSUE AND ADVISED TO OBSERVE THEM.

THE CONSTITUTION OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN ALSO EMPHASIZES THEM.

WE OBSERVE HUMAN RIGHTS VERY WELL.

BUT WHAT I SAID IN MY SPEECH THAT HUMAN RIGHTS IS NOT FULLY IMPLEMENTED BY SOME COUNTRIES, I MEAN THOSE WHO ADVOCATE HUMAN RIGHTS BUT IN PRACTICE, THEY DON'T OBSERVE THEM.

>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY.

SO WHAT I WANT TO UNDERSTAND IS ARE YOU THERE FOR SAYING THAT KILLING INNOCENT PROTESTERS, SEXUALLY ABUSING AND RAPING WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN ARRESTED AS WE, CNN, HAVE SPOKEN TO AT LEAST ONE WOMAN THAT SAID THAT IN A REVOLUTIONARY GUARD DETENTION CENTER.

SUMMERY TRIALS, MASS DETENTIONS OF PEACEFUL PROTESTERS.

I'M TALKING ABOUT PEACEFUL PROTESTERS NOW.

IS THAT IRAN'S STANDARD FOR IMPLEMENTING HUMAN RIGHTS?

THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO KNOW.

>> Translator: IN IRAN, WE HAD AN INCIDENT.

AN IRANIAN GIRL PASSED AWAY AND WE WERE ALL VERY SORRY ABOUT THAT BUT FOREIGN INTERFERENCE AND THE PERSIAN LANGUAGE MEDIA BASED IN THE UNITED STATES AND BRITAIN FOCUSED ACTIVITIES ON ENCOURAGING AND INSTIGATING THE RIOTS AND ACTS OF TERROR.

AND THAT'S WHY PEACEFUL PROTESTS ENDED UP BECOMING VIOLENT.

BECAUSE OF THE FOREIGN INTERVENTION.

TO THE EXTENT THAT EVEN ISIS EXPLOITED THE SITUATION TO ESTABLISH A PRESENCE IN IRAN AND I CAN TELL YOU THIS, IN FULL CONFIDENCE, THAT OUR POLICE AND THE SECURITY FORCES IN IRAN HAVE NOT KILLED ANYONE WITH BULLETS OR ANY OTHER MEANS IN THE RIOTS.

IN FACT, THE POLICE, THEY WERE NOT EVEN GIVEN PERMISSION TO USE FIREARMS.

IN THE CONTRARY, OVER 100 POLICE OFFICERS WERE ACTUALLY ATTACKED BY PEOPLE WITH ALL KINDS OF FIREARMS AND WEAPONS THEY PROCURED FROM THE UNSAFE BORDERS OF NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES.

THEY WERE MARTYRED AND THOUSANDS OF POLICE WERE INJURED.

AND SOME FOREIGN ELEMENTS AND THE PERSIAN LANGUAGE MEDIA THAT ARE FINANCIALLY SUPPORTED AND LED BY THEM CLAIM THAT THERE WAS A NEW REVOLUTION AND CLAIM THAT A COUP IS BEING STAGED IN IRAN AND WHO IS GOING TO LEAD THIS?

THE HEAD OF THE TERRORIST MINI GROUP, THE HYPOCRITES THAT MARTYRED 17,000 IRANIANS, WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND BEEN ON THE U.S. AND WESTERN TERRORIST BLACKLISTS FOR MANY YEARS.

AND THEN THERE IS THE SON OF THE FORMER SHAW WHO HAS COMMITTED MANY CRIMES AND I SAID TO THE AUTHORITIES IN GERMANY, WOULD YOU ALLOW A SON OF HITLER IF HE HAD ANY CHILDREN TO BE CHANCELLOR IN GERMANY TODAY?

>> ARE YOU SERIOUSLY DRAWING THAT COMPARISON?

>> Translator: YES, OF COURSE, THAT'S WHAT I TOLD THE GERMANS.

>> SO THAT'S YOUR POSITION.

YOU SAY THEY'RE TERRORISTS.

YOU DID SAY THERE WERE PEACEFUL PROTESTS.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE PEACEFUL PROTESTS.

THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALSO BEEN ARRESTED, HAVE ALSO BEEN KILLED AND ESSENTIALLY REPRESSION HAS WORKED.

WE'VE SEEN SUMMERY EXECUTIONS OF AT LEAST FOUR PEOPLE AND THE PROTESTS ARE LESS THAN THEY WERE.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU TO RESPOND.

I WANT TO ASK YOU TO RESPOND TO THE FACT WHEN YOU SAY THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN RESPECTS HUMAN RIGHTS, ONE FEMALE PROCESSER SAYS THAT SHE WAS DETAINED INSIDE A REVOLUTIONARY GUARD FACILITY FOR MORE THAN A MONTH AND RAPED BY THREE DIFFERENT MEN.

SHE CLERIC AFTERWARDS SHE WAS HAVING SUICIDE THOUGHTS.

CNN SPOKE WITH THE CLERIC.

IS THAT ACCEPTABLE?

IS IT ACCEPTABLE FOR A WOMAN, WHATEVER SHE'S DONE TO BE ARRESTED AND RAPED?

AND THERE ARE MANY, MANY, MANY REPORTS OF SEXUAL ABUSE IN THIS >> Translator: FIRSTLY, IN THE PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATIONS IN THE FALL, NO ONE WAS ARRESTED.

>> SO YOU'RE JUST DENYING THAT?

>> Translator: HOWEVER, IN THOSE PROTESTS THAT HAD BECOME VIOLENT, SOME INDIVIDUALS, SOME OF WHOM HAD ENTERED IRAN FROM THE OUTSIDE AND USING FIREARMS AND KILLING THE POLICE WERE ARRESTED.

YOU DO KNOW THAT THE SUPREME LEADER ACTUALLY ISSUED AN AMNESTY AND ALL THOSE IN PRISONED WERE RELEASED WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THOSE WHO KILLED SOMEONE OR BEING SUED.

REGARDING THE IRANIAN WOMAN THAT YOU MENTIONED, I CAN NOT CONFIRM IT.

THERE ARE SO MANY SUCH BASELESS CLAIMS MADE ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND IN MEDIA.

>> OKAY.

THESE ARE NOT BASELESS AND THEY WEREN'T ON THE INTERNET AS CNN SPOKE TO A CLERIC, A RELIGIOUS PERSON.

>> Translator: WE HAVE SEEN SOME OF CNN'S REPORTS THAT ARE TARGETED AND FALSE.

>> THAT'S NOT TRUE.

WE REPORT THE FACTS AND WE REPORT THE TRUTH AND THAT'S WHY YOU'RE SITTING HERE WITH ME, MR. FOREIGN MINISTER.

CAN WE MOVE ON?

I WANT TO ASK YOU.

YOU HAVE A WIFE.

YOU MAY HAVE SISTERS.

DO YOU HAVE DAUGHTERS?

I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT PEACEFUL PROTESTS FOR CHANGE IN THE WAY WOMEN ARE ABLE TO LIVE THEIR LIVES IN IRAN.

THE PEACEFUL ACT OF REMOVING A SCARF, WHAT DO THEY SAY TO YOU, THE WOMEN IN YOUR FAMILY?

WHAT DO THEY SAY TO YOU?

>> Translator: FIRST OF ALL, I'D LIKE TO SAY IN IRAN, WE HAVE THE STRONGEST DEMOCRACY ESPECIALLY COMPARED TO MANY OTHER COUNTRIES.

THERE ARE STANDARDS AND RULES AND REGULATIONS IN EVERY COUNTRY.

AND THE WOMEN HAVE AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN IRAN AND THEY GAINED THAT ROLE AFTER THE VICTORY OF THE ISLAMIC REVOLUTION IN IRAN.

TODAY, THE OUTSIDE NETWORKS, THEY ARE TURNING THE ISSUE OF HIJAB AND HEAD SCARF.

>> THE THING IS I KIND OF KNOW ABOUT THIS.

I ALSO KNOW AT THE BEGINNING OF THE REVOLUTION, THERE WAS NO HIJAB MANDATE.

THOSE WHO WANTED TO WEAR IT COULD, THOSE WHO DIDN'T WANT TO, DIDN'T.

ONLY SEVERAL MONTHS OR MAYBE A YEAR AFTER DID THE IOTOLA SAY NO, YOU HAVE TO WEAR IT.

I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU, THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO DO, EVEN RECENTLY THE AYATOLLAH SAID THEY'RE NOT VIOLATING RELIGION.

THEY SAID DO WE NEED TO MAKE THIS CHAOS OVER A HIJAB.

I WANT TO KNOW IF YOU ACCEPT IT.

IT'S OLDER WOMEN IN THE STREETS, MEN, YOUNG, IT'S VERY DIFFERENT THAN PREVIOUS PROTESTS.

IF YOU ACCEPT THAT WOMEN CAN HAVE PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATIONS FOR CHANGE AND FOR THEIR OWN RIGHTS, DO THEY HAVE THE RIGHTS?

YOU SAY THAT IT'S THE MOST DEVELOPED DEMOCRACY.

DO WOMEN HAVE THE RIGHT PEACEFULLY?

>> Translator: UNFORTUNATELY, IN SUCH ISSUES, THEIR APPROACH IS ONE OF DOUBLE STANDARD.

LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION -- >> I'M ACTUALLY QUOTING YOUR LEADERS, MR. FOREIGN MINISTER.

>> JUST A MOMENT.

>> I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO A DISCUSSION.

I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION CONCERN.

>> Translator: I WANT TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION BEFORE.

AN IRANIAN GIRL PASSED AWAY.

>> BECAUSE SHE WAS MAN HANDLED BY THE BRUTALITY POLICE.

>> JUST A MOMENT, PLEASE.

>> Translator: YES, A YOUNG GIRL PASSED AWAY.

THEY TURNED HER INTO A SYMBOL IN ORDER TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM IN IRAN.

IN THE NAME OF DEFENDING WOMEN'S FREEDOM, MY QUESTION IS THIS, A COLLEAGUE OF YOURS AND A JOURNALIST, SHE'S A LADY, SHE'S A CHRISTIAN AND IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, SHE WAS MARTYRED BY THE ISRAELI REGIME.

WHO DEFENDED HER?

>> MR. FOREIGN MINISTER, THE WHOLE WORLD, EVERYBODY DEFENDED HER AND EVERYBODY CONDEMNED HER DEATH.

>> Translator: THE RESULT?

WHAT WAS THE RESULT -- >> I'M NOT GETTING INTO AN INTERVENTION.

EVERYBODY CONDEMNED HER DEATH, MR. FOREIGN MINISTER.

I'M LITERALLY ASKING YOU WHETHER IN IRAN YOU BELIEVE WOMEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO PEACEFULLY PROTEST AND BY THE WAY, AS YOU KNOW, BETTER THAN I DO, SOMETIMES THE MORALITY POLICE ARE OUT BEING AGGRESSIVE AND SOMETIMES THE AUTHORITIES SAY JUST TAKE IT EASY.

ALL RIGHT?

AND WHAT DO WE SEE?

SINCE THIS PRESIDENCY, WE HAVE SEEN A CRACKDOWN ON WOMEN AND THEIR DRESS AND THEIR RIGHTS.

WHY?

WHY DOES ANY REGIME -- >> Translator: LIVING IN IRAN.

>> WHY DOES ANY REGIME NEED TO PROVE ITSELF ON THE BACK OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS, THEIR OWN BODILY SPACE?

WHY?

WHY IS THAT -- >> MY REQUEST TO YOU -- LOOK, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO INTERVIEW ME BUT YOU'RE ACTUALLY HAVING A CONFRONTATION WITH ME.

>> THIS IS ONE LAST QUESTION AND THEN I NEED TO MOVE ON.

>> THIS IS NOT AN INTERVIEW.

>> I'M TRYING TO GET AN ANSWER.

>> Translator: AND THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO CONDUCT AN INTERVIEW.

>> I JUST WANTED AN ANSWER, THAT'S ALL.

>> Translator: WOMEN IN IRAN HAVE ALL THE NECESSARY REQUIRED FREEDOMS WITHIN THE FRAME WORK OF THE LAW.

>> I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT -- >> Translator: DO YOU ASK THE OTHER COUNTRIES WHO ARE IN OUR REGION BUT ALLIES OF THE UNITED STATES THE SAME KINDS OF QUESTIONS THAT YOU'RE ASKING ME?

>> YES.

>> Translator: ABOUT THE WOMEN'S HIJAB?

THE ISSUE IN IRAN AT THE MOMENT IS NOT THAT OF HIJAB, WHAT DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH THE MEK TERRORISTS?

ASK THEM.

WHAT IS THIS HIJAB THEY'RE WEARING BASED IN EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES AND THIS WOMAN WHO WANTED TO COME AND BECOME PRESIDENT IN IRAN, WHY IS IT THAT SHE HAS ESTABLISHED COME HIJAB FRIENDS OF THE UNITED STATES, FRIENDS OF THE WHITE HOUSE.

WHY SHOULD THERE BE A DOUBLE STANDARD.

>> I REALIZE WE REACHED THE END OF THIS LITTLE BIT BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT GOING TO ANSWER ANY MORE, BUT AS YOU KNOW, YOUR GOVERNMENT'S REACTION, VIOLENT REACTION AGAINST WOMEN HAS CHANGED FOREIGN POLICY AND YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH MANY COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.

MORE SANCTIONS HAVE BEEN LEVELLED AGAINST YOU.

THE WHOLE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL IS NO LONGER WILLING TO BE NEGOTIATED EVEN IF YOU'RE WILLING, THEY'RE NOT WILLING ANYMORE, THE U.S. AND EUROPE.

BUT FIRST, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT ANOTHER REALLY IMPORTANT THING AND THAT IS ABOUT IRANIAN WEAPONS TO RUSSIA THAT ARE TARGETING UKRAINIANS DURING THIS WAR.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHY IT IS IRAN'S POLICY TO SEND DRONES AND OTHER MILITARY SUPPORT TO PRESIDENT PUTIN THAT ARE USED TO KILL CIVILIANS INSIDE UKRAINE?

WHY ARE YOU SENDING DRONES TO VIOLATING ALL SORTS OF SANCTIONS BUT STILL, ALSO CAUSING A HUGE AMOUNT OF DEATH?

>> Translator: WE OPPOSED THE WAR IN UKRAINE AND NOT SENT WEAPONS TO EITHER SIDE AND FROM THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE WAR, WE HAVE TRIED TO STOP THE WAR.

SO THAT BOTH SIDES FOCUS ON A POLITICAL DIALOGUE.

THIS IS THE SAME POLICY THAT WE ADOPTED IN THE CASE OF YEMEN, AFGHANISTAN, AND VARIOUS OTHER COUNTRIES IN CRISIS.

REGARDING ACCUSATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE AGAINST IRAN WITH REGARDS TO DRONES, THEY'RE UNTRUE.

WE HAVE HAD DEFENSE COOPERATION WITH RUSSIA IN THE PAST AND WE CONTINUE THAT COOPERATION.

BUT WE HAVE NOT PROVIDED RUSSIA WITH ANY WEAPONS TO BE USED IN THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

>> OKAY.

SO YOU'VE PROBABLY SEEN THESE PICTURES, RIGHT?

SO THAT IS A DRONE, AN IRANIAN DRONE THAT WAS FOUND INSIDE AND RECOVERED FROM UKRAINE.

THIS IS WELL WITH THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE STANDING NEXT TO IT.

THIS, THEY HAVE COMPARED -- >> Translator: WHO SAYS THAT?

>> THIS IS THE UKRAINIANS.

>> Translator: WHO SAYS THAT?

>> THIS IS THE UKRAINIANS FROM OPEN SOURCES FROM, LIKE, YEMEN AND OTHER -- >> Translator: HOW CAN THEY PROVE THIS DRONE WITH A PHOTOGRAPH?

>> ARE YOU DENYING IT?

ARE THESE TWO THE SAME THING?

THIS -- >> Translator: LET ME EXPLAIN IT TO YOU.

>> OKAY.

FINE.

THAT'S WHAT THE UKRAINIANS SAY AND THOSE ARE THE PICTURES OF THE SAME DRONE THAT YOU-ALL DISPLAY AT MILITARY SHOWS AND FAIRS AND THAT HAVE BEEN DISCOVERED IN YEMEN AND OTHER PLACES WHERE YOU ARE ACTIVE.

>> Translator: I WILL EXPLAIN TO YOU WHAT HAPPENED.

A FEW MONTHS AGO I TELEPHONED THE UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER AND I SAID WHAT ARE THESE BASELESS ACCUSATIONS YOU'RE MAKING ABOUT IRAN?

HE SAID WE ACTUALLY HAVE DOCUMENTS THAT IRANIAN DRONES ARE BEING USED BY RUSSIA IN UKRAINE.

I SAID LOOK, WE'RE READY FOR THE MILITARY TEAM AND IRANIAN MILITARY TEAM TO SIT DOWN AND LOOK AT THE DOCUMENTS AND THEN MAKE JUDGMENTS.

AND UKRAINIAN AND IRANIAN TEAMS SAT DOWN AND SHOWING US VERY BLUR OBSCURE PICTURES.

>> WHAT I SHOWED YOU WASN'T BLURRY.

>> Translator: OUR EXPERTS EXAMINED THESE PICTURES AND THE PICTURES HAD NO CONNECTION WITH IRAN WHATSOEVER AND FOR FOUR MONTHS, WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THE SECOND ROUND OF TALKS.

AND WE EXPECT THEM TO COME AND PRESENT CLEAR DOCUMENTS BUT THE UKRAINIAN TEAM KEEPS SAYING IN TWO WEEKS, SOON, BUT NOTHING HAS HAPPENED.

>> SO THE THING IS YOU DID SAY, THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT DID SAY YOU HAVE SENT RUSSIA ACCORDING TO WESTERN DIPLOMATS, YOU SENT MANY AFTER THE INVASION.

HUNDREDS OF IRANIAN DRONES HAVE BEEN LAUNCHED AND OVER 100 OF THEM HAVE STRUCK THEIR TARGETS.

THEY ARE CIVILIAN TARGETS INSIDE UKRAINE.

THAT IS WHY RUSSIA IS OFFERING TO TRADE FIGHTERS AND ANOTHER WESTERN DIPLOMAT SAID TOO LONG.

I NEED YOUR ANSWER.

THAT'S WHY THERE ARE SANCTIONS AGAIN.

>> Translator: WE ASKED OUR RUSSIAN COUNTERPARTS AND THEY SAID WE HAVE NOT USED IRANIAN MANUFACTURED DRONES IN UKRAINE AND WE SAID TO THE UKRAINIAN COUNTERPARTS, IF YOU HAVE ANY DOCUMENTED PROOF, SHOW IT TO US.

WE WILL LOOK INTO IT.

THE UKRAINIAN SIDE DID NOT SHOW ANY STRONG PROOF TO SUBSTANTIATE THE CLAIM WITH THE EXCEPTION OF SOME MEDIA ACCUSATIONS.

AND I CAN TELL YOU EXPLICITLY, AS THE FOREIGN MINISTER OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN THAT WE ARE AGAINST WAR.

WE'RE AGAINST WAR IN UKRAINE, AGAINST WAR IN AFGHANISTAN, AGAINST WAR IN YEMEN, AGAINST WAR IN PALESTINE AND OUR PRESIDENT HAS MADE GREAT EFFORTS IN ORDER TO STOP THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

A FEW MONTHS AGO, MR. MACRON ASKED THE PRESIDENT OF OUR COUNTRY TO COME AND MEDIATE.

BECAUSE HE HAS GOOD RELATIONS WITH RUSSIA AND THEN THE PRESIDENT SENT ME TO MOSCOW AND I SPOKE WITH RUSSIAN OFFICIALS AND WE ARE CONTINUING OUR EFFORTS.

WE THINK WAR IS NOT A SOLUTION.

NEITHER IN UKRAINE, NOR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

LOOK, IT'S MILITARY EXPERTS.

I'M NOT AN EXPERT EITHER AND NOW AS A CNN REPORTER YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT THIS IS AN IRANIAN DRONE.

I THINK THAT INCIDENTALLY THE WAY YOU'RE ASKING QUESTIONS, THE WAY YOU'RE MAKING ALLEGATIONS IS WRONG, IF UKRAINIANS HAVE THESE DOCUMENTS, LOOK, WE WENT AND SAT WITH THEM.

>> SO NO NEGOTIATIONS.

DO YOU HAVE ANY HOPE THAT THERE WILL BE A JCPOA, NEW NUCLEAR DEAL?

THAT'S ONE PART OF THE QUESTION.

THE OTHER PART OF THE QUESTION IS, HOW MUCH REENRICHING TO?

ONE REPORT SAYS 84%.

CAN YOU TELL US?

>> WITH REGARDS TO THE JCPOA, IT HAS BEEN AND THE MOST COMMITTED PARTIES IN THE NEGOTIATIONS.

THE PARTY THAT LEFT THE JCPOA WAS TRUMP AND THE UNITED STATES.

THE UNITED STATES SHOULD NOT ADOPT DECEPTIVE BEHAVIOR AND INSTEAD, RETURN TO JCPOA AND ADOPT A CONSTRUCTIVE APPROACH.

UNDER THE GOVERNMENT, WE HAVE DECIDED TO CONTINUE DIALOGUE TO RETURN TO JCPAO.

WE HAVE HAD A VERY LONG DISCUSSION IN VIENNA.

IT IS SAYING IRANIANS DON'T HAVE THE NECESSARY RESOLVE.

THEY SAID WE WERE AT A STAGE OF REACHING AN ACCORD BUT IT'S THE IRANIANS TOO DEMANDING.

I WILL TELL YOU EXPLICITLY IN THE PAST FEW YEARS, WE SAW THAT THE U.S. OFFICIALS WERE UNABLE TO MAKE A DECISION BECAUSE OF THEIR OWN INTERNAL PROBLEMS AND THE PRESSURES THEY'RE UNDER.

THEY'RE STILL UNABLE TO MAKE A COURAGEOUS DECISION TO RETURN TO JCPOA AND OF COURSE, THE IRANIAN PARLIAMENT SINCE THE RIOTS AND U.S.

INTERVENTIONS AND INTERVENTIONS BY THREE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES IN THE PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATIONS IN IRAN HAVE BEEN PUTTING A LOT OF PRESSURE ON OUR GOVERNMENT.

OH WAS IN PARLIAMENT LAST WEEK AND THEY SAID WHO DO YOU WANT TO MAKE AN AGREEMENT WITH?

THE UNITED STATES AND THREE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES TRYING TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM DURING THE RIOTS IN THE FALL?

WHY ARE YOU NEGOTIATING WITH THEM?

HOW CAN YOU TRUST THEM?

NEVERTHELESS, WE ARE STILL ON THE PATH OF DIALOGUE.

WE HAVE A ROAD MAP WITH THE IAEA AND ON TWO OCCASIONS, THE DEPUTY CAME TO IRAN IN THE PAST TWO WEEKS AND WE HAD CONSTRUCTIVE AND PRODUCTIVE NEGOTIATIONS AND WE HAVE ALSO INVITED MR. GROSSI TO COME VISIT IRAN SOON, THEREFORE, OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE IAEA IS ON THE CORRECT, NATURAL PATH AND WE SAID THIS TO THE U.S. SIDE THROUGH MEDIATORS WE'RE ON THE PATH TO REACH AN ACCORD.

BUT IF THE IRANIAN PARLIAMENT ADOPTS A NEW LAW, THEN WE'LL HAVE TO ABIDE BY THE PARALA MEN -- PARLIAMENTARY ACT BUT THIS WINDOW WILL NOT REMAIN OPEN FOREVER.

THE U.S.

THEY SEND REMARKS THAT ARE DECEPTIVE.

SOMETIMES I HAVE SERIOUS DOUBTS.

I RECEIVE A MESSAGE FROM THE U.S. PARTY.

EMPHASIZING THE COMMITMENT TO ACCORD.

BUT THEN IN THE MEDIA, THEY SAY WE ARE NOT AT A POINT OF ACCORD.

THAT JCPOA IS NOT A PRIORITY ON OUR AGENDA.

WHICH VERSION SHOULD WE ACCEPT?

.

NEVERTHELESS, WE'RE ON THE PATH OF REACHING AN ACCORD.

WE BELIEVE A COUPLE OF OUTSTANDING ISSUES BETWEEN US CAN BE RESOLVED AND IT CAN BE FINALIZED.

BUT THAT REQUIRES THE U.S. SIDE TO SAY THE SAME THING THEY'RE TELLING US CONFIDENTIALLY AND THROUGH DIPLOMATIC CHANNELS AND EVEN IF THEY DON'T WANT TO TELL THE MEDIA EVERYTHING, AT LEAST DON'T DENY IT IN YOUR MEDIA AND TELL US IT IS BECAUSE YOU'RE UNDER PRESSURE BY THE U.S.

JOURNALISTS AND HAVE TO MAKE SUCH REMARKS BECAUSE OF YOUR INTERNAL SITUATION.

LOOK, IF THE U.S. SIDE WANTS TO COME BACK TO THE COMMITMENTS IN THE JCPOA, THEY NEED THE COURAGE OF THEIR CONVICTIONS.

WE HAVE THE COURAGE OF OUR CONVICTIONS AND WE HAVE SHOWN IT.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED, APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW, RUSSIA'S WAR HAS IMPACTED THE LIVES OF UKRAINIANS IN UNFAITH MBLE WAYS AND YOUNGSTERS THAT SEEM TO HAVE VANISHED INTO THIN AIR.

A REPORT BY MISSING CHILDREN EUROPE SAYS 353 ARE CURRENTLY DISAPPEARED AND 16,221 HAVE BEEN FORCIBLY DEPORTED TO RUSSIA WHERE THEY UNDERGO RUSS FA CASE.

PRESIDENT OF MISSING CHILDREN EUROPE IS BACK FROM KEY GRIEVE AND JOINING ME NOW HERE IN THE STUDIO.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> HI, CHRISTIANE, HI, EVERYBODY.

>> LISTEN, WHAT DOES IT MEAN, EVEN?

WE CAN'T SEE THE CRIMINALS.

WE CAN'T SEE THE VICTIMS.

THE BIG UNKNOWN IS WHAT ACTUALLY IS HAPPENING?

DOES ANYBODY KNOW THE EXTENT OF THE PROBLEM OF MISSING CHILDREN?

>> THIS IS PROBABLY THE BIGGEST DEPORTATION OF OUR TIMES AND WE DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE TEMPORARY AREA OF UKRAINE AND TO THE AREAS WHERE THERE IS HOSTILITIES NOW BUT THE ESTIMATE OF THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITY IS THAT THEY CAN REALLY THINK IT POSSIBLE 16,000 -- >> THAT'S A HUGE NUMBER.

>> HUGE.

>> THEY ALSO SAY IT COULD BE UP TO 700,000.

>> NO, CHILDREN, CHILDREN, YOU WOULD KNOW WHERE THE PARENTS ARE MISSING THOSE KIDS.

>> EXACTLY.

OUR ORGANIZATION MISSING CHILDREN EUROPE HAS A SISTER ORGANIZATION UKRAINE CALLED MOG -- MAGNOLIA.

I MET HER IN KYIV LAST WEEK AND THEY ARE RECEIVING REPORTS AND PHONE CALLS LOOKING FOR CHILDREN AND DOING EVERYTHING THEY CAN IN UKRAINE TO HELP UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES TO IDENTIFY AND ALSO NEIGHBORS TO OTHER NGOs, TO ALL SORTS OF POSSIBLE INVESTIGATION AND REPORTS WITH LIMITS THAT THEY ARE TO PUT TOGETHER THE DOTS AND SEE THAT THE INFORMATION GOES TO THE CENTRAL AUTHORITIES OF UKRAINE TO THE PROSECUTOR, TO THE POLICE AND WHATEVER UKRAINIANS WILL DECIDE IS THE BEST WAY TO COORDINATE INFORMATION.

WHY IS THAT DIFFICULT?

BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ACCESS.

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT?

THIS IS ILLEGAL DEPORTATION AGAINST THE GENEVA CONVENTION CIVILIANS AT WAR AND AGAINST THE UNITED NATION CONVINCE ON THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILDREN AND IT'S BEEN DENOUNCED BY AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL AS A WAR CRIME AND ALSO, CHRISTIANE, THEY SAID IT SHOULD BE INVESTIGATORS CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.

>> IN MANY, MOST WARS THAT FOLLOW AT LEAST THE LAWS AND REGULATION OF WAR, ICRC THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS HAS ACCESS TO PRISONERS AND DO THEIR OWN OBSERVATIONS.

THEY DON'T MAKE IT PUBLIC.

THEY ARE A TRUSTED NEUTRAL THIRD PARTY.

HAVE THEY HAD ACCESS TO THE CAMPS?

>> I TAUGHT LAST WEEK IN KYIV.

I TALKED TO A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE OF THE RED CROSS AND I WAS TOLD THEY DO NOT HAVE ACCESS.

THEY DO NOT HAVE INFORMATION.

I WAS ALSO HAVING A REALLY GOOD MEETING WITH THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER OF UKRAINE AND SHE'S VERY MUCH COMMITTED AS THE ENTIRE UKRAIIAN GOVERNMENT IS AN ABSOLUTE PRIORITY AND SHE SAID NO INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION, NOT THE UNITED NATION, NOT THE RED CROSS HAS ACCESS TO THOSE CHILDREN, WHICH IS ILLEGAL OR HAS ANY OFFICIAL INFORMATION.

>> SO WHEN YOU ASK RUSSIA, WHICH I ASSUME YOU DO, WHAT DO THEY SAY?

>> THEY SAY THEY'RE RESCUING CHILDREN AND SAVING CHILDREN AND THEY SAY THAT THEY HELP CHILDREN TO BE REINTEGRATED INTO -- >> REINTEGRATED INTO WHERE?

>> RUSSIAN SOCIETY BECAUSE THERE WAS WAR IN UKRAINE.

SO THE THING IS THIS IS A HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE BUT ALSO A POLITICAL SHAME BECAUSE THEY ARE MANIPULATING AND USING CHILDREN FOR POLITICAL PURPOSE AND USING CHILDREN AS AN INSTRUMENTAL WAR, CHRISTIANE.

>> DESCRIBE HOW THAT IS HAPPENING.

I SAID RUSSIAFICATION LIKE TURNING THEM INTO RUSSIA KIDS.

DO YOU KNOW HOW AND WHY THEY'RE DOING THAT?

>> I GO TO PUBLIC SCHOOL OF HEALTH SAYING THEY ARE MORE LESS 43 DOCUMENTED REEDUCATION CAMPS, THEY CALL THEM REEDUCATION CAMPS -- >> INSIDE RUSSIA.

>> INSIDE RUSSIA FROM SIBERIA TO THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF KILOMETERS SPREAD WHERE BASICALLY THE CHILDREN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK UKRAINIAN.

THEY HAVE TO SPEAK RUSSIAN.

THEY ARE EVEN THOUGHT OF COURSE HISTORY AND EVERYTHING ON THE NATIONAL THING OF RUSSIA AND GIVE MILITARY EDUCATION.

SO IT'S -- >> MILITARY EDUCATION?

>> MILITARY EDUCATION SOME OF THEM.

>> IT'S A WAY OF STRIPPING THEM FROM THE FAMILIES BUT FROM UKRAINIAN IDENTITY.

>> ARE THEY BEING SENT BACK INTO WAR, BEING PREPARED TO SEND INTO WAR?

>> THAT WE DON'T KNOW.

THEY'RE GIVING MILITARY EDUCATION.

THEY ARE BASICALLY TAKEN A LAW THAT CAN SPEED UP ADOPTION.

THAT CAN SPEED UP GIVING THEM A NEW PASSPORT WHICH IS ALSO -- SOME OF THE CHILDREN HAVE BEEN ADOPTED AND EVEN THE PERSON OF RUSSIA CALLED ON THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE TO ADOPT IT WHICH MEANS CALLED THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE TO COMMIT A CRIME.

>> IS THIS PERSON, IS IT MARIA -- >> EXACTLY.

>> THE PRESIDENTIAL COMMISSIONER FOR CHILDREN'S RIGHTS IN RUSSIA.

>> YEAH.

>> AND AS YOU SAY ADOPTED UKRAINE FROM MARIUPOL.

>> EXACTLY.

>> CAN I -- >> 17-YEAR-OLD AND -- >> HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO CONTACT HER?

>> NO.

WE SHOULD DO THAT.

>> I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT SHE'S THE FACE BUT BEHIND IT IT'S A CENTRALIZED SYSTEM WHERE THIS POLICY COMES FROM THE TOP WHERE REGIONAL LOCAL AUTHORITIES ARE INVOLVED -- >> AND RUSSIAN.

>> RUSSIANS.

SO WE SHOULD REALLY ALSO TALK ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY AND IMPUNITY.

SO SHE'S OF COURSE, PART OF IT AND OTHERS ARE ALSO AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.

THIS IS A POLICY THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A YEAR AND BEFORE AND MAINLY CHILDREN THAT WERE ORPHANS AND RUSSIAN UKRAINIAN INSTITUTION SO THE MOST VULNERABLE DISABLED CHILDREN, I WAS -- >> SO MAYBE DON'T HAVE PARENTS TO VOUCH FOR THEM.

>> THERE ARE SIMATIC REEDUCATION EFFORTS TO RUSSIA CENTRIC ACADEMIC, CULTURAL, PATRIOTIC, AND MILITARY EDUCATION AND YOU'RE SAYING AS WELL THAT SOME OF THEM MAY BE DISABLED, SOME OF THEM MAY HAVE BEEN INSTITUTIONALIZE.

>> BECAUSE SOMEHOW EASIER, IF I MAY USE A TERRIBLE TERM.

>> CAN I PLAY DEVIL'S ADVOCATE?

SOME OF THESE ADOPTIONS -- SORRY, FORCIBLE DEPORTATIONS AND ADOPTIONS, IT APPEARS, HAVE BEEN MADE FROM THE AREAS THAT RUSSIA HAS BEEN OCCUPYING SINCE 2014, RIGHT?

WHERE THEY SAY THERE IS RUSSIAN SPEAKING, RUSSIAN LEANING, IT'S RUSSIAN EVERYTHING.

AND THAT THEY'RE DOING WHAT THE PEOPLE IN THAT PART OF UKRAINE WOULD WANT THEM TO DO, PROTECT RUSSIAN LEANING KIDS.

>> YOU KNOW, IF PUTIN HAD NOT INVADED -- SUPPORTED THE OCCUPATION OF DONBAS IN 2014 BECAUSE THAT'S WHEN THE WAR STARTED, I WAS THERE.

THE REFUGEES WERE THERE FROM 2014.

LET'S NOT FORGET AND THE FULL SCALE INVASION A YEAR AGO.

IF THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN, THESE CHILDREN WOULD BE HAPPY LIVING PRORUSSIAN, NOT SPEAKING RUSSIAN AND, YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD BE CHILDREN OF UKRAINE THAT PROBABLY UKRAINE BEFORE PEOPLE HAD NOTHING AGAINST RUSSIA BEFORE BEING INVADED.

>> HAS ANYTHING LIKE THIS, THE SPECIFIC REMOVAL OF CHILDREN AND THE INDOCTRINATION, HAS IT HAPPENED IN HISTORY, MODERN HISTORY?

>> NOT AFTER THE WAR I CAN THINK ABOUT.

THIS IS -- >> WHEN THE LAWS AND RULES WERE IN PLACE AFTER WORLD WAR II.

>> WHICH OF COURSE WAS ALSO -- BECAUSE WE HAD THE CONVENTION AFTERWARDS WHICH WAS A CRIME, AS WELL.

NOW, THIS IS 2023.

WE HAVE CHILDREN FROM 17-YEAR-OLD TO 4-YEAR-OLD THAT ARE STRIPPED ABOUT THEIR IDENTITY AND STRIPPED FROM THEIR FAMILY.

LET SAY THERE IS A LOT OF FAMILIES THAT UNDER THREAT AND WAR CIRCUMSTANCE FORCED TO SIGN A PAPER SAYING I CONSENT TO YOU, CHRISTIANE, TO GIVE YOU MY CHILD FOR AWHILE, BRING IT IN A CAMP SUMMER CAMP IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS IN THREE MONTHS, HE OR SHE WILL GIVE THEM BACK TO ME.

THESE CHILDREN NEVER RETURNED.

AND NOW THEY'RE SAYING THESE CHILDREN ARE KEPT THERE INDEFINITELY.

THESE PARENTS HAVE BEEN ASKING ALSO TO OUR MAGNOLIA, OUR PEOPLE IN UKRAINE FROM MISSING CHILDREN NETWORK INFORMATION AND HAVEN'T GOT ANY INFORMATION.

>> IN ARGENTINA DURING THE HUNTER, THERE WAS SIMILAR SITUATIONS THAT WERE CATASTROPHIC.

WHAT I WANT TO KNOW, IS THERE A LESSON FROM ARGENTINA OR NOT THAT MIGHT HELP YOU FIGURE OUT HOW TO RECOVER THESE CHILDREN AND BRING THEM BACK TO THEIR FAMILIES?

IS THERE ANY ROAD MAP FOR THAT?

>> WE HAVE TO DENOUNCE.

WE HAVE TO CONDEMN AND SAY IT'S ILLEGAL.

WE HAVE TO SAY IT'S A WAR CRIME.

WE HAVE TO MOBILIZE THE LEADERS OF THE WORLD.

>> OTHERWISE PRETTY POWERLESS?

>> TO PUT PRESSURE ON RUSSIA AND TELL RUSSIA, GIVE ACCESS TO INTERNATIONALLY INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION, LET'S HAVE A COMMISSION WHERE RUSSIA WILL AGREE.

THEY TELL US THE CHILDREN ARE IN GOOD SHAPE AND EVERYTHING IS FINE.

INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE HAS THE POSSIBILITY TO GIVE LECTURES VERY DELAYED FROM PRISONERS WHILE YOU HAVE CHILDREN THAT CANNOT GIVE INFORMATION TO THEIR PARENTS AND VICE VERSA.

SO -- >> ALL RIGHT.

IT'S JUST -- >> WHY WE DO THAT ACCESS TO THE CHILDREN INFORMATION ABOUT THE CHILDREN, SAY THIS IS ILLEGAL, SAY IMPUNITY IS NOT AN ISSUE.

ACCOUNTABILITY IS AN ISSUE.

WE WANT TO HAVE THE NAMES AND WE ARE CHECKING.

WE ARE CHECKING HEALTH IN THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES, HELPING FOREIGN MINISTER AND PROSECUTOR AND POLICE TO FIND WHO IS INVOLVED.

THIS ISN'T SOMETHING THAT A PERSON DOES.

IT A HUGE ORGANIZED COORDINATED DEPORTATION, SIMULATION OF UKRAINIAN CHILDREN.

>> IT REALLY BEGS BELIEF.

I WANT TO ASK YOU, YOU STARTED YOUR WARTIME CAREER AND ADVOCACY IN BOSNIA WHERE WE MET AND YOU'VE SEEN THE NUMBER OF UKRAINIAN CHILDREN TRAUMATIZED AND THE NUMBER WHO HAD THEIR EDUCATION DISRUPTED.

WHAT DID YOU LEAN IN BOSNIA THAT MIGHT PLAY OUT ON AN EVEN BIGGER LEVEL FOR THESE CHILDREN IN THE FUTURE AFTER THE WAR?

>> NEVER EVER CONSIDER CHILDREN SEPARATE, SMALL OR ASIDE ISSUE.

THERE ARE CENTRAL PART OF THE WAR FROM HUMANITARIAN POINT OF VIEW BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE AN ENTIRE GENERATION, THE MOST VULNERABLE AND THE OTHER THING IS DON'T ALLOW THEM TO BE POLITICALLY EXPLOITED.

DON'T AFFORD A LOST GENERATION.

WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF UKRAINE WITHOUT THE CHILDREN?

>> WHAT IS -- >> THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

ANNA ME REYA.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

PRESIDENT OF MISSING CHILDREN EUROPE.

NEXT, TO THE IMMIGRATION CRISIS ON THE U.S. SOUTHERN BORDER, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS GOING TO ROLL OUT RESTRICTIONS THAT SOME CRITICS CLAIM ARE SO STRICT THEY ECHO TRUMP'S.

THE POLICY WOULD DENY MIGRANTS ASYLUM IF THEY CROSS THE BORDER ILLEGALLY OR FAIL TO FIRST APPLY FOR SAFE HARBOR IN ANOTHER COUNTRY.

JAY JOHNSON WAS SECRETARY OF HOME LAND SECURITY UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA AND HE JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS HOW THE ISSUE TODAY IS MORE CHALLENGING THAN EVER.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

MR. SECRETARY JAY JOHNSON, THANKS FOR TALKING TO US AGAIN.

>> PLEASURE TO BE HERE AGAIN.

>> SO YOU SERVED AS PRESIDENT OBAMA'S SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY FOR FOUR YEARS FROM 2013 TO 2017.

BACK THEN, YOU SAID THE SITUATION AT THE BORDER WAS A CRISIS.

NOW APPREHENSIONS AT THE BORDER AT AN ALL TIME -- AT LEVELS WE HAVEN'T SEEN IN SOME TWO DECADES.

JUST BEFORE WE SORT OF DIG INTO THE DETAILS, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> FIRST, MICHELLE, THERE WERE TIMES WHEN WE SAW SPIKES WHILE I WAS IN OFFICE MAY 2014 COMES TO MIND.

WE HAD THAT MONTH, 68,000 APPREHENSIONS IN THE SOUTHERN BORDER BACK THEN NINE YEARS AGO DID FEEL LIKE A CRISIS.

NOW OF COURSE, THE NUMBERS ARE MULTIPLES OF THAT THE LEVEL OF RESOURCES THAT BORDER SECURITY PERSONNEL IN TEXAS, ARIZONA, NEW MEXICO HAVE ARE MUCH BIGGER AS WELL BUT THE PROBLEM IS DEFINITELY BIGGER NOW AND IT'S A CRISIS IN MULTIPLE RESPECTS.

A, NUMBERS OF 250,000 A MONTH, 150,000 A MONTH, EVEN OVERWHELM THE BORDER PATROL'S ABILITY AND ISIS' ABILITY TO KEEP TRACK OF THE PEOPLE TO PROCESS ALL THESE PEOPLE TO PLACE IN THE IMMIGRATION COURTS ALL THESE PEOPLE AND FRANKLY IT OVERWHELMS THE COMMUNITY.

YOU TRY TO ABSORB THE NUMBERS INTO THEIR LOCAL CHARITIES, THE VOLUNTEER ORGANIZATIONS AND SO NUMBERS LIKE THIS ARE A CRISIS AND WE SHOULD NOT BECOME, YOU KNOW, WE SHOULD NOT LOOK AT THIS IN ANY SORT OF NORMALIZED WAY.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S HAPPENING NOW, THE COMMON WISDOM HERE IS THAT THE SORT OF INFORMAL NETWORK OR HOWEVER PEOPLE TRYING TO MAKE THE DECISION TO CROSS ARE MAKING IT ARE ANTICIPATING THE END OF TITLE 42, WHICH WAS THE TRUMP SORT OF ERA MECHANISM TO RAPIDLY DEPORT PEOPLE SITING THE PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY?

>> FROM OWNING THIS PROBLEM FOR THE 37 MONTHS THAT I DID THERE ARE CERTAIN BASIC LESSONS THAT I BELIEVE REMAIN TRUE.

ONE, THE PUSH FACTORS ARE THE PREDOMINANT DRIVING FORCE BEHIND PEOPLE SHOWING UP ON OUR SOUTHERN BORDER, THE PROBLEM IS BIGGER NOW IN 2022, 2023 BECAUSE YOU HAVE CUBA, NICARAGUA AND VENEZUELA.

IN 2014 IT WAS MEXICANS, GUT MA LA -- GUATEMALA AND HONDURAS AND WE HAVE ADDITIONAL COUNTRIES WITH WHOM WE HAVE ALMOST NO DIPLOMATIC RELATIONSHIP TO RE-ENGAGE IN THE PROCESS OF REPATRIOTING THEM.

THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

NUMBER TWO, THE SMUGGLERS EXACERBATE THE MESSAGE.

THEY'RE LIKED USED CAR DEALERS TO SAY THE SALE IS GOING TO EXPIRE AT THE END OF THE WEEK.

YOU HAVE TO GO NOW.

THERE IS A FEEDING FRENZY, A SNOWBALL EFFECT TO THIS AND SO YOU SEE NUMBERS INCREASING THAT THEY ARE BECAUSE PEOPLE SEE OTHER PEOPLE LEAVING HEADING NORTH AND DECIDE IT'S TIME FOR THEM TO COME TO AND THE OTHER CORRELATION TO THIS PROBLEM, THE HARD LESSON I LEARNED IS THAT WE CAN DO CERTAIN THINGS TO ENHANCE ENFORCEMENT ON OUR SOUTHERN BORDER, WHICH WILL HAVE AN ALMOST IMMEDIATE IMPACT ON THE NUMBERS BECAUSE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS A VERY INFORMATION SENSITIVE PHENOMENON AND REACTS SHARPLY TO INFORMATION ABOUT RECEIPT CHANGES ONE WAY OR ANOTHER BUT SO LONG AS THE UNDERLYING CONDITIONS EXIST IN THESE SOURCED COUNTRIES THAT ARE DRIVING FAMILIES TO MAKE THIS DECISION TO LEAVE THIS PROBLEM IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO PERSIST AND THE NUMBERS ARE ALWAYS AN ELAPSE BACK TO THE LONGER TREND TERM LINES.

>> IN THE NEAR TERM, AS YOU CERTAINLY KNOW, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS ANNOUNCED THIS NEW POLICY, IT'S A PROPOSAL POLICY OPEN FOR PUBLIC COMMENT NOW AND THE DETAILS ARE IT WOULD RECRETE A PRESUMPTION OF ILL LEGALITY IF YOU DON'T MAKE CERTAIN CONDITIONS THAT WOULD MAKE IT EASIER TO DEPORT PEOPLE.

IT SAYS MOST -- IF YOU CROSS THE SOUTHERN BORDER ILLEGALLY, IF YOU DON'T NOTIFY THE AUTHORITIES THAT YOU'RE COMING THROUGH THIS APP OR IF YOU DON'T APPLY FOR ASYLUM IN A COUNTRY THAT YOU PASSED THROUGH THAT IS MOST LIKELY MEXICO.

OBVIOUSLY, THE AD VACATES SAY THIS IS TOP LINE TO INHUMANITY.

>> NOTHING THIS HAS DONE APPROACHES THE LEVEL OF INHUMANITY IN THE POLICIES OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

THAT WAS DETOUR RANS ON STEROIDS SEPARATING CHILDREN FROM PARENTS SEPARATING INFANTS FROM THEIR MOTHER IS INHUMAN AND IT VIOLATES BASIC LAWS OF DECISION -- DECENCY.

WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION IS DOING IS BUILDING OFF THE SUCCESS WITH VENEZUELA LAST FALL.

THEY BASICALLY CREATED A POLICY FROM THOSE COMING FROM VENEZUELA TO SAY THERE IS A RIGHT WAY AND WRONG WAY TO COME HERE, LET'S CREATE THIS LEGAL PATHWAY FOR YOU TO COME HERE AND APPLY FOR ASYLUM.

FOLLOW THAT.

DON'T JUST SHOW UP ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

THAT PROGRAM SAW SUCCESS BECAUSE THE NUMBERS OF VENEZUELAS AFTER THE PROGRAM WAS DENOUNCED CLIMBED SIGNIFICANTLY.

THE BASIC POINT HERE IS YOU CAN'T PADLOCK A BURNING BUILDING.

YOU HAVE TO GIVE PEOPLE A WAY TO LEAVE LEGALLY AND SAFELY SO ADMINISTRATION IS BUILDING ON THAT TO SAY THAT WE'RE CREATING LAWFUL SAFE MECHANISMS FOR YOU TO SEEK ASYLUM IN THE UNITED STATES.

HERE IS THE WAY YOU DO IT.

YOU KNOW, USE THIS APP OR APPLY IN COUNTRY OR APPLY IN MEXICO AND YOU'RE ASYLUM CLAIM WILL BE CONSIDERED.

SO THEY'RE TRYING THE VEEZUELA EXPERIMENT ON A MUCH BIGGER SCALE.

ONCE THIS POLICY GOES INTO EFFECT THERE WILL BE LEGAL CHALLENGES TO IT.

PEOPLE HAVE A BASIC RIGHT IF THEY QUALIFY FOR ASYLUM IN THIS COUNTRY TO RECEIVE ASYLUM UNDER THE LAW EVEN THOUGH YOU MIGHT QUALIFY LEGALLY FOR ASYLUM BECAUSE YOU HAVE A WELL FOUNDED FEAR OF PROSECUTION IN YOUR HOME COUNTRY THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT WILL MAKE YOU UNELIGIBLE FOR ASYLUM OR EXAMPLE AND IF YOU'RE A CONVICTED FELON SOMEPLACE.

ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO BROADEN THOSE BASIS FOR INELIGIBILITY TO NOT FOLLOW THE COMPASS.

I'M SURE THERE WILL BE LEGAL CHALLENGES TO THAT.

AND WE'LL SEE HOW THE COURTS CONSIDER IT.

>> WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER?

I'M INTERESTED IN YOUR OPINION.

>> OUR IMMIGRATION COURTS ARE HOPELESSLY BACKLOGGED.

AND IT TAKES YEARS TO ADJUDICATE AN ASYLUM CLAIM AND MIGRANTS KNOW THAT, TWO, THREE, FIVE YEARS.

THE OTHER POINT ABOUT HOW WE ADJUDICATE ASYLUM CASES, MANY CASES ON THE FRONT END OF THE PROCESS, THE MIGRANT HAS TO ESTABLISH A CASE OF CREDIBLE FEAR.

I HAVE A CREDIBLE FEAR IF I'M RETURNED TO MY HOME COUNTRY, I WILL BE PERSECUTED.

THAT BAR IS RELATIVELY LOW.

THE ULTIMATE BAR TO ASYLUM IS MUCH HIGHER AND SO YOU HAVE A CERTAIN HIGH PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE QUALIFYING ON THE FRONT END FOR CREDIBLE FEAR AND ON THE BACK END, FOR THE ULTIMATE ADJUDICATION OR FEAR, THAT NUMBER THAT PERCENTAGE IS MUCH LOWER.

MIGRANTS KNOW THAT.

PEOPLE KNOW THAT AND MANY BECAUSE THEY ARE SO DESPERATE TO LEAVE WHERE THEY'RE COMING FROM AND STAY IN THE UNITED STATES ARE WILLING TO STAY HERE EVEN FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS WHILE THEIR ASYLUM CLAIM IS PENDING, YOU SEND MONEY HOME TO FAMILIES AND MAKING THE BASIC CHOICE THEY'RE BETTER OFF DOING THAT THAN STAYING IN VENEZUELA OR GUATEMALA OR HAITI OR CUBA.

>> WHAT I'M GETTING FOR YOU IS THIS POLICY IS A WAY TO SLOW IT DOWN, SEND A SIGNAL WHICH IS NOT GOING TO BE EASY BECAUSE OF THAT.

>> MICHELLE, THIS ARE PUSH FACTORS AND THEN THERE ARE ASPECTS THAT OPERATE AS MAGNETS.

THE SHEER LENGTH OF TIME IT TAKES TO ADJUDICATE A CLAIM IS A MAGNET.

THE TWO DIFFERING BARS BETWEEN CREDIBLE FEAR AND ULTIMATE CASE FOR ASYLUM IS A MAGNET.

THE PUSH FACT TOMORROWS ARE THE BIGGEST FACTORS.

THEY OVERWHELM THE SYSTEM.

BUT OUR BROKEN SYSTEM DOES HAVE THESE FEATURES THAT OPERATE AS MAGNETS AND WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO DO, AT LEAST IN THE SHORT TERM IS TO ADDRESS THOSE FACETS OF OUR BROKEN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM SERVING AS MAGNETS.

MEASURES WILL CAUSE A DOWNTURN ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

WE SAW A DOWNTURN IN THE MONTH OF JANUARY 2023 FOR EXAMPLE.

BUT SO LONG AS THE UNDER LYING PUSH FACTORS PERSIST, THE NUMBERS ARE ALWAYS GOING TO REVERT BACK TO NORMS AND LONGER TERM TREND LINES.

>> SO I GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING ABOUT THE PUSH FACTORS, THE PUSH FACTORS ARE SOMETHING PEOPLE HAVE TALKED MORE OPENLY ABOUT AND CERTAINLY SOMETHING DEMOCRATS TALK A LOT ABOUT.

THEY TALK ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE EFFECTS OF GANG VIOLENCE AND THE EFFECTS OF POLITICAL INSTABILITY AND ARE THOSE -- IS THERE REALLY A WILL TO ADDRESS THOSE FACTORS AND DOES THE UNITED STATES REALLY EVEN HAVE THE CAPACITY TO ADDRESS THOSE FACTORS?

>> ONE QUESTION IS DO WE HAVE THE WILL TO DO THIS?

SECOND QUESTION IS CAN WE DO THIS?

SO LET ME START WITH THE CAN WE DO THIS?

THROUGH A SUSTAINED EFFORT, I BELIEVE WE CAN.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN 2016 MY LAST YEAR IN OFFICE, WE GOT CONGRESS TO APPROPRIATE $750 MILLION TO THREE COUNTRIES, GUATEMALA, HONDURAS AND EL SALVADOR FOR THIS PURPOSE.

ENABLING A COFFEE GROWER IN QUAD -- GUATEMALA TO GET BETTER AT DELIVERING HIS PRODUCT BETTER TO THE MARKET GIVES PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY HOPE.

IT ENABLES THEM TO ENCOURAGE WORKERS TO STAY IN GUATEMALA BECAUSE THEY HAVE A FUTURE.

FUNDING FOR ANTI CORRUPTION EFFORTS CAN WORK.

NOW, GETTING TO THE WILL WE, DO WE HAVE THE WILL?

I FEEL WE DO NOT.

PEOPLE WANT QUICK FIXES TO THIS PROBLEM ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER AND IT IS NOT A PROBLEM AMEMORABLE.

THERE IS NO QUICK FIX TO CLIMATE CHANGE.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT CAN GO AWAY BECAUSE YOU ISSUE AN EXECUTIVE ORDER, YOU SOMEHOW CLOSE THE SOUTHERN BORDER SO WE HAVE TO COME TO A RECOGNITION THAT REQUIRES YEARS TO SOLVE AND ADDRESS AND I'VE TALKED TO DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS.

POLITICALLY, IS IT ATTRACTIVE, NOT VERY?

THE REALITY IS IF WE ADDRESS THIS AND THIS IS ONE OF THE HARD LESSONS WE LEARNED, YOU HAVE TO ADDRESS IT AT THE SOURCE.

>> WHY IS THIS SO HARD?

THIS IS A SITUATION GOING BACK YEARS DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ALL AGREE THIS IS A PROBLEM.

>> THIS IS HARD BECAUSE IT'S OVER POLITICIZED.

OVER THE LAST, I'LL SAY, TEN YEARS THIS HAS BECOME A LIGHTNING ROD RED MEAT OVER POLL -- POLITICIZED ISSUE.

MANY STOKE RACISM AROUND THIS ISSUE.

THE GREAT REPLACEMENT THEORY, WHICH IS EMBRACED BY HIGH PERCENTAGES OF AMERICANS.

PEOPLE ARE SOMEHOW AFRAID OF THE BROWNING OF AMERICA FROM OUR SOUTHERN BORDER.

SO IT'S BECOME AN OVER POLITICIZED ISSUE AND POLITICIANS, POLITICIANS ON THE RIGHT FRANKLY STOKE THIS AND IT'S BECOME VERY DIFFICULT TO REACH COMPROMISE ON THIS.

AS RECENTLY 2016, IT PASSED WITH 68 VOTES.

THAT'S A LOT OF REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS.

AT SOME POINT ALONG THE WAY IT IS A TALKING POINT AND MORE ATTRACTIVE ON THE RIGHT AND LEFT TO POLITICIZE ON THIS ISSUE, SCREAM AND CALL THEM EVIL AND NOT DO THE HARD WORK TO COME TOGETHER AND TRY TO REACH A COMPROMISE, WHICH TOO MANY PEOPLE VIEW AS POLITICALLY COSTLY.

>> OKAY.

YOU'VE IDENTIFIED PUSH FACTORS ON THE RIGHT AS IT WERE NOT GETTING TO SOLUTIONS.

WHERE HAVE THE DEMOCRATS FAILED?

HOW HAVE THEY CONTRIBUTED TO FAILING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM?

>> THEY'RE CERTAIN THINGS THAT NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT AND LEFT ARE GOING TO YELL AT YOU.

ON THE LEFT, THEY GET UPSET IF WE ARREST PEOPLE AND IF WE DETAIN PEOPLE AND DEPORT PEOPLE.

THE LOGICAL EXTENSION OF THAT IS OPEN BORDERS.

ON THE RIGHT WE SHOULD ARREST EVERYBODY, DETAIN EVERYBODY AND DEPORT EVERYBODY.

SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN IS ANI CAN -- EQUAL LIBRIUM.

>> THE LAST TIME IT WAS PASSED WAS 1986 A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT AND DEMOCRATIC CONTROLLED CONGRESS.

DO YOU HAVE A SENSE WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO GET BACK TO A BIPARTISAN CONSENSUS?

>> WHEN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY DECIDES FOR ITSELF THAT IS IT IN ITS POLITICAL SELF-INTEREST TO EMBRACE REFORM, FOR A LONG TIME THAT WAS THEIR VIEW.

1986, 1980s DURING GEORGE W. BUSH'S PRESIDENCY, HE WAS ABOUT IMMIGRATION REFORM AND AS RECENTLY AS 2013.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS WALKED AWAY FROM THAT AND DOESN'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS ISSUE EXCEPT TO SCREAM AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE NUMBERS CROSSING THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

AGAIN, IT TRACKS BACK, MICHELLE, TO WHERE DO THE POLITICAL INCENTIVES LIE OR AT LEAST WHERE DO POLITICIANS PERCEIVE THAT THEIR POLITICAL INCENTIVES LIE?

IN MY OPINION, AMERICANS SHOULD JUDGE VOTERS, SHOULD JUDGE THEIR REPRESENTATIVES BASED UPON STUFF THEY GET DONE, NOT SIMPLY WHAT THEY SCREAM ABOUT AND WHAT THEY SAY THEY STAND FOR.

IF WE HAD A REPORT CARD FOR MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, FOR THE NUMBER OF BILLS THEY SPONSORED AND GOT PASSED VERSUS SIMPLY WHERE DO YOU STAND ON ALL THESE OVER HEATED ISSUES, WE'D SEE A LOT MORE GETTING DONE IN WASHINGTON.

>> FORMER SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, MICHELLE.

>> A GLIMPSE OF BEAUTY IN THE WORLD FROM SOME OF THE BEST PICTURES OF THIS PAST YEAR.

THIS WEEK, SONY ANNOUNCED THE FINALIST FOR THE WORLD PHOTOGRAPHY AWARDS PICKED FROM MORE THAN 410,000 IMAGES FROM OVER 200 COUNTRIES AND HERE ARE SOME THAT CAUGHT OUR EYE.

THIS ONE SHOWS A GIRL'S SOCCER TEAM IN AFGHANISTAN USING THAT TO HIDE THEIR IDENTITIES NOW THAT THE TALIBAN HAVE TAKEN POWER STILL PLAYING IN THIS IMAGE, THE CHANGING LANDSCAPE IS PROJECTED ON THE PEOPLE AND BUILDINGS THERE TODAY WHILE THIS PHOTO CAPTURING THE LIGHT OF VISITING FIRE FLIES WAS PRODUCED BY STACKING LAYERS OF IMAGES TAKEN OVER SEVERAL MINUTES IN THIS PARK.

THE WINNERS WILL BE ANNOUNCED IN APRIL AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.