It feels goo to be able to be the first one.

And the main thing for m is being able to get it started.

I would say for 20, 25 years, he was the only blac firefighter on this department until he got his opportunity to hire us.

When you talk about passion and why you do it, I'm more reflecting on the passion of these two individual to get me to my childhood dream.

I went through what I went through so I can listen to these guys talk.

I would hope the people find an educational piece out of the the experiences from what we've been throug and the stories we had to tell.

The Muskegon Heights Fire Department has a rich history of service, but did you know that it also has a legacy of black excellence in the firefighting field?

Today, we hear one conversation centered around four trailblazing stories that have changed the Muskegon Heights firehouse forever.

So let's just open it up.

We've got a lot of different firefighter generations here.

Can you talk to me?

What order did you all serve?

He hired me and me, and then he hired me.

Starting back in the 60s.

Chief Morris, he was a pioneer, being the first black firefighter and the first black fire chief.

In this city.

I mean, he broke barriers not only in the city.

Chief Morris was the first black firefighter in all of Muskegon County.

And if you look at our history that there was still a lot of turbulence.

There was still a lot of things that today we would balk at.

He was breaking ground and dealing with things that I've never had to deal with and don't even fully understand.

Was that something you saw yourself doing?

You hadn't seen anybody you know, with your background?

Do it before?

No, it was, brought to me.

There was nobody else there.

And why not try?

My challenge was basically being able to come and stay on the department.

Just stay here because you work 24 hours.

And so you stay and you had your and all that stuff here is.

And so on.

You ate here and everything.

You come back, you did the same thing over again.

So you had to carry yourself in a certain way that they would respect you, Chief Morris is being modest.

He had to eat at a separate table.

People wouldn't even sleep in the same bed that he slept in, which was a plus for him because he didn't have to worry about anybody else sleepin in the bed.

thats right, you know.

But every day I would jus try to imagine what was it like, you know, to be the only one for 20, 25 years and the things that he would have to go through.

And, you know, luckily he had size on him when he came in.

You know and it made a little difference.

You know, was always in pretty good shape.

I aint in shape like I was back he, he's one of decided to grab and I picked him up over my head and then set him back down.

I said, that's right.

For real.

And never had the whole problem of that.

So that was one of the things that you dealt with.

And I treated everybody human like I treat them like I wish to be treated.

So everything just was a different type of place.

And I was the only one there.

I was the only black in th department for almost 20 years.

So I got used to working there and doing that and staying with it so that, I can listen to these guys talk.

Way theyre movin and takin They got it, and they gone with it.

I said, okay, yeah.

I didn't stay here for nothing.

Does he serve as an inspiration for any of you like in your journey here through the Department?

Absolutely.

Every day I reflect on, you know, what he started.

And without him, it would be no us.

And when you walk in my office is two photos.

It's one of the younger, Chief Morris and one of, Chief Morris.

As he got ready to retire.

So, and, chief Lay and chief Dean as well, you know, they were all instrumental and in me being where I am.

If you had hired just anybody else off the street, I don't think they would have made it.

He didn't do it just for him.

He did it with the mindset of, I have to do this for people.

That's coming behind me.

So when he finally got the opportunity to hire other minorities and other blacks, he did.

And and we are sitting here because of because of his mindset.

Until Chief Morris actually started recruiting me I had no ide what the fire service was about.

I was born and raised here.

I remember the old fire station, and we used to come down here and slide down the pole and, and do stuff and fire department would come to the schools, but it was never anybody that I saw on that day that looked like me, that encouraged me to come and be a part of this different perspective on it.

I was I was a person who knew as a kid I wanted to be a firefighter.

I reflect on my first couple days here where, me and Chief Morris may have been at odds on a couple occasions when he told me like it was he was he was honest.

He told me like it was.

And I may have not appreciate it until like three years later.

four years later, 20 years later.

There's so many things that absolutely see what Chief Morris was talking about when he course corrected me very sternly, but but professionally, in my first days here, I have, a special attachment to this community.

I got my start in law enforcement.

I don't think that that was my true calling.

When the fire trucks come, You're there to help.

Whereas when the police car, the sheriff's deputy patrol car pulls up, it's usually a negative experience for not only the adults, but the kids as well.

So, seeing that and just seeing both sides of it, it led me here.

His example has, has even transcended breaking other barriers.

I've taken it a personal mission of mine to hire and maintain females.

I think the inclusio in all races and demographics.

I think it's important becaus this community is a melting pot and also the, young kids coming up.

They can see someone in their likeness.

That is the one thing that I wanted to make sure is that the kids in the community saw people that look like them, that they could relate to.

The community was an important factor to me.

When I got a chance to to get on the department, what was done by chief Lay and Chief Morris in let's see, 1994 and five was kind of unheard of.

Chief Morris and Chief Lay, they put together a in-house training program.

They had to jump through all kinds of hoops to get us our initial firefighter training s that we were ready to be hired, and that today, to this day, is a struggle i the urban areas to make happen, which is where a lo of your minority population is.

Once Chief Morris encouraged me to get my instructor certification, I'm out there instructing firefighters, or young firefighters across the state of Michigan because once you get it, you can go other places.

And then all of a sudde we didn't have any instruction for our own.

When you're out in the rural areas, you get an opportunity.

You can be on a volunteer department and just be there and get your certification.

Not anywhere in the state of Michigan, in a metropolitan area Is there a opportunity for someone to get their fire service certification And so we took that on.

You know, he encouraged me.

And that was the one thing that I will always remember about Chief Morris, about Ivory is he would always encourage s contacting the state of Michigan and trying to get that initial class together.

And then once it came to fruition, once we had people that was actually passing the test, not with just barely passing out of the woodwork started coming different things where you didn't have this.

Yes we did.

Well, you didn't have this.

Yes we did.

Well, you didn't have a state certified.

Yes I am.

I remember we had to retake a test that we had already passed.

We had passed the state exam in a in a state exam setting with all the other student from the rest of the academies.

But yet because of the program or because of where it came from, we had to retake the firefighter exams, which at that time I didn't see it for what it was for.

That became very passionate to me and of course to him, because this was our own community.

Chief Morris did what he had to in order to get us here.

I was more of the I'll show you Yeah, I was more of the oh, you can't stop me.

And Im gonna do it in big fashion.

You're not going to tell me what I can't do when you talk about passion and why you do it.

I'm more reflecting on th passion of these two individuals to get me to my childhood dream.

The program they started as a kid growing up in this community.

I'm from the city of Muskegon Heights.

We didn't know how the firefighters became firefighters.

So to give back and to understand what they started, w still carry that torch on today.

Every year we are allotted, a number of seats in the Muskegon County, Fire Academy.

And so each year, out of our training budget, we try to put 1 or 2 individuals through that school.

If you look in the not too distant past, something that is very unheard of in the entire United States was on the table.

And that was a smaller fir department taking over a larger fire department.

A very contentious discussion amongst the community of City of Muskegon, reaching out to us to provide their fire service and take over to provide those services.

And I think that's a testament to the overall works over time and the reputation of the organization itself.

Hearing all of them talk about, I guess, what has expanded from the work that you two have done.

I mean, how does that make you feel after you kind of pulled off so much red tape?

It feels good to be able to b the first one and been able to, I had happened to pick a good pe to be able to, take it and go run with it, you know?

The main thing for me is being able to get it it started and I was starting things and, and to listen to now him and I said, wow, he's he's really taken it on and he's gone with it.

I was back when I started was nothing like that.

It just I'm learning stuff too.

So.

I think Chief Morris had a, a plan.

And I'm sitting here you know, just kind of thinking, when you're in the moment, you don't realize the importance of it.

Now, you can start to jus kind of appreciate and actually see, you know some of the fruits of the labor, you know, that you've been that you've been cultivating for, you know, years.

When I became the first black fire chief in another city, I was like, oh, yeah, this is exactl what what Ivory was talking abou So I knew what either what not to do or what to do.

As much as we cultivate black leadership in the fir department its just as important for those who are black to develop friendships and relationship with people who are not black.

It's a two way stree because when those experiences are shared, all of a sudden people bridge the gap.

And some of what Chief Morris started is part of that path of creating connectivity.

And I think that gets missed nowadays a lot in some wa it may be viewed as pro-black, but it is not to the exclusion of any other race.

I'm very prou of the fact that he's one he's still here, that, we can give him these accolades, but he he started something in in each of us, we have something that' different and special about us.

And he saw that.

He saw as I, the brainiac He saw the brains of the of the organization.

Okay?

We wasn't the, the greatest, but we, we knew what we needed to comple to complete the team.

And so, you know, you got you got the coach here And he was putting a team together.

And so he had me and I was the I was the loud boisterous I was, you know, I'm, I'm the one that's out there.

But then when Chris came on, he was the one that was putting everything together.

And the same goes with this going this way.

A talented individual wh I've known majority of my life, but as he a he came forward with a passion for the community, I saw the talent.

And I'm a technical person.

I'm a nerd.

I'm not always that great with interpersonal dynamics, Chief Roberson has an ability to lead and inspire on a much higher level than mine.

I saw a bridging of a of my own talent gap.

He became the deputy chief of the department.

And so that continuatio of of building and establishing it wa another personal mission of mine to make sure that I acknowledged each one of these individuals before me.

So if you walk down that hallway, you'll see pictures of them.

And through the ranks, they laid a good example down for me to follow.

Same thing that chief Lay was saying about Chief Morris.

I mean, you don't see those things at the time, but when you're in them.

Okay, no I see what he's talking about.

And now these are the landmines that he was trying to warn me about.

And I appreciate, what these guys have done.

And hopefully I can instill some of these values and the vision in the next chief you mentioned you kind of understood what Chief Morris was talking about.

Can you talk about some of the challenges that maybe you encountered where you've seen the industry go in your time?

There was plenty of time when I went all over the state for classes, and a lot of times I would be the only minority in the classroom.

And at the time it was all about seniority.

And so I knew that I had to ou test them in order to be equal.

And so when it came time to test I out tested them, because I had I had a chief that was saying you know, yeah, you can do it.

and Ill never forget first time we tested, everybody got in an uproar I did out score them and the assistant chief came back and the individua said, no, that test is invalid.

We're going to test again.

And the assistant chief told them He said he said, y'all going to give him an opportunity to retest.

Are you kidding me?

Youre gonna make yourself look bad Yeah.

Are you kidding me?

Okay.

So yeah, I just have to chuckle sometime, you know, at the fact that that I went through this and I know he has people from the South, I have people from the South.

I do.

You know, this is stuff that you see in the 1960s in the South, not up in Michigan.

So it was just certai things that I was accustomed to.

But racism wasn't one of them, you know, until I started getting out into the the bigger picture of the fire service and starting to hear the stories and starting to realize that it's still relevant.

I kind of made it a passion of mine to start breaking down those barriers wherever I could and when I could, because when we're in the heat of the battle, nobody cares what you look like when you put that mask on and you put that suit on Nobody cares.

Absolutely.

It's only when you take it off.

is when the stuff start hitting the fan.

Absolutely But but yeah, we I love it.

I don't know if you two have ever heard it or anyone here.

When I was hired here, 21 years old, a a white girlfriend and probably the first open interracial relationship member of the department.

And I'm sitting at the dinner table with my shift.

We're talking about my relationship.

And an older white gentleman goes, you know Robin's and Blue Jays don't mix.

And this is 1996, new to the department.

I have a, one year old mixed daughter.

Never will I forget that moment where the people who I was working with, who were supposed to be my partner, supposed to be teaching me, training me, mentoring, that comment was made to me because I knew what the comment meant.

And there were several other moments both in the department and outsi I remember specifically I was at a fire officer class at probably five years on the depar a bunch of us are in line for the pop machine in the garage.

One says to the other, how much are the pops?

It was like $0.50 a can, which was slightly cheaper and he says to the other one, oh, the white man's price that was a comment.

He turns, he looks, and he goes, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way.

He meant it that way.

He meant what it is.

He meant what he said.

And, and it's part of thos experiences that have galvanized a viewpoint that I have that I don't let those people's proble with my race become my problem.

To do something like that and say something like tha today would not be acceptable in a class, would not be acceptable in this department, would not be acceptable in most organizations.

But it's it's a reality.

And I'm not sure if I've ever shared that with you two.

No you never did I'm a member of a black fraternity.

The reason my fraternity was formed, because it was on a white campus and you couldn't walk You couldn't walk on campus by yourself.

So the reason they formed a fraternity was so if Chief Morris had a class, chief Dean, chief Lay and myself would make sure he got to class.

And that was the brotherhood And until you experience those things your mindset is just different.

I think we need to have open dialogs because, yeah, we've came a long way since the 1960s, bu we still got a long way to go.

We have more in common than we have different, and until the unaffected ar affected, change will not come when we respond to an emergency.

If you're in need, you don't care if the firefighters black white you just want help.

These moments of need and emergencies, tend to bring us together.

I know for me it's never been a thing of race.

I think we all can agree that, this position as a chief, this, this transcends us.

This will outlive us.

It's you know, a little bit of everyone here that sitting her before me has molded this thing, but you always want to leave and say, hey, we made that a little better than it was the day I come here, and I don't think we can do something better It's time for me to step aside.

We all respect each other, you know, for what we had to go through at the time.

I respected him much more when I found out what he had to go through and stay here to get to where we at.

And, you know, I could say the same thing about them much respect for for all of us.

You know this, that's the word that comes to mind for me right now.

While we're winding down with questions, I promise I won't make you sit there for forever.

But I was curious.

You know, when I made the call, what made you say yes?

Why would you want to come an talk today and tell your story?

The most important element for me is to capture this and to see what it was like in this moment.

For, Chief Morris great, great, grea great grandkids that never met or seen him or, you know, and the same thing for Chief Lay and Chief Dean and myself.

You know, 100 years from now, they will look back and be like, hey, that was my grandfather.

You know, my son was born not here in Muskegon, but I want to have a place where he can come back, look on the wall and see a place where his his father was respecte and where his father was loved.

Whenever you talk to a firefighter, you hear the brotherhood, you hear the sister hood You hear that connection when they call I was on my way.

They didn't have to tell me what it was about.

They just had to say, I need you to be there.

I will be there.

I am so proud that I can be here.

I am so proud.

The fact that that I'm able to be here to honor not only Ivory in what he started, but to honor what these two, you know, carried on.

This department is one of the big gems of Muskegon Heights.

I am I'm so proud of being able to say that this is my start my why, chief Morris.

And chief Lay but Chief Morris, because on the front end of my career, I didn't fully realize what he had done for me.

In hindsight, looking back the more I look, the more I see.

And this is a great opportunity.

And he, probably only in the last few years has heard me say thank you.

Hes probabl not fully aware of the gratitude that I have for him.

When Chief Roberson said, hey, we're doing this, are you interested?

I was like, absolutely, because I see far more clearly than ever what Chief Morris did for me, what he did for the community, what he did for the all the firefighters who who are currently workin here are a great deal of Chief Morris' work I was looking forward to hear what these guys are saying now, you know, that was the reason why I went through what I went through.

So I can listen to these guys talk.

Yeah.

Really.

I haven't heard these guys talk like that.

It's just really, I' sitting here listening because it's just a great thing to hear them talk.

And I think about some of the things I did do.

Okay, I did do that.

Didnt I. I didnt know I did that this was the, the best decision that I made, in my life.

And this is all due to, you know, somebody just seeing a vision of what he was looking for in this area.

But it ended up not being just this area.

You know, he gets a chance to say that he hired people that has taken this small fire service to another level.

So we all owe him a great deal of gratitude.

And and every time that we get a chance to, you know, offer that or say that we're going to we're going to do that and I haven't had the opportunity to to really sit down in this type of setting and say thank you to each and every one of you, and not only for me, but the city of Muskegon Heights.

Without you guys, there will be no me from the bottom of my heart.

Thank you guys.

Thanks for watching.

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