>> Produced by women about women, Powerful Women: Let's Talk is a series of interviews with women who are trailblazers and have helped shape our world transforming who we are and how we live.

>> Hello, everyone.

We would like to welcome you to a special edition of powerful Women: Let's Talk.

during Women's history month.

I'm Jennifer Moss along with Shelley Irwin we co-host our podcast, Powerful Women: Let's Talk and we have lots to get to in a short amount of time.

But as we look at powerful women, so many of the women we interviewed today, those that we highlight would likely not be standing in the positions they're in, had it not been for those who came before us.

Yes.

So today we are absolutely thrilled to have joining us for a wonderful discussion about women's history.

Jo Ellyn Clarey with the Greater Grand Rapids Women's History Council and Sophia Ward Brewer also with the Greater Grand Rapids, Women's History Council and Librarian at GRCC.

>> And so as we look at that, we have a short amount time, right?

We do going to dive right into that.

We're going to start talking about women's history.

We're going to use March.

Of course, we always use that to highlight the accomplishments and the like.

But there's so much more, you know, so such as how do we start preserving women's history in acknowledging that women were, in fact, a driving force behind the history that's being made and has been made in this country.

>> In the 1970's, there were formal academic disciplines that were begun, African-American studies, women's studies, Title XI came along and that helped everything, not just sports.

So that's when really digging into the past in the disciplined ways using research began.

But women have always been instrumental in keeping their own history in various ways in the throughout the 19th century.

When Susan B, Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, we're spearheading the suffrage movement.

They saved everything.

And in fact, while they were alive, 3 or 4 out of 6, big, thick volumes of the history of suffrage in the country were published.

So there's there's that in terms of being able to do it, acknowledging that women have a history has been a little slower.

And but women have always pushed in terms of their own needs that we call first wave feminism to first real push during the 19th century.

And it wasn't just about voting rights, but women being able to control their children have some say in when they were left by husbands control their inheritances, their money.

And then after 1920, we can talk a little more specifically about some of this.

There are there's been huge with waves of progress until about 1920, when there was a big backlash resisting the 19th amendment which gave you universal voting rights.

Things got so bad that by the 50's 60's, the seeds were planted for an explosion of second wave feminism in the 1970's.

And that's a huge decade that the Women's History Council has been focusing on this year.

>> But I'm just curious and it's not just the real quick, but why is the preservation?

Why was it so difficult to do?

Why did people want to not acknowledge that women had a place in this country and have had wonderful steps in stride that they've made from?

>> Many, many, many years ago.

I think I mean, if we just look at the word history, history is his story.

So with women's history, we put women before his stories.

So women become the center of his story.

So I think that's important that's of the I think that there were just such rigid gender roles that women had to fight.

Elizabeth Cady Stanton in 1848 at the first rights women's rights conference initially was not speaking on the stage.

For one thing.

I think she was afraid but it might not have been politic for women to be fronting.

So with men were running the meeting, including Frederick Douglass and so big, getting getting a voice and letting people hear it in public, letting yourself be seen in public was not lady-like so that there was a long so effort there.

And actually, I think that man writing histories really didn't think women's contributions mattered that much in one very quick example.

There's a Grand Rapids City history in two volumes written by Mister Goss, who was, in fact, the supportive husband of a major dynamic suffragist in Grand Rapids.

But in his history, there's one sentence saying that the national suffrage movement met in Grand Rapids in 1899.

And that's it.

It was a huge deal.

So we go to new digitize newspapers now to find these stories.

But there is very little presence of women and I could go on with other examples.

But I just women's contributions were shrugged off.

They went in after all.

>> And you can say this is part of the national history, but also Grand Rapids history.

Yes, that Goss is a Grand Rapids history.

And again, it crossed all lines.

It didn't matter.

Racial and other barriers.

No one no female was allowed or thought to have a presence worth account when it that time for the most part.

>> And women were known in their days.

You can give a couple of good examples of this.

They were in the newspapers all the time.

And but they were that that kind of authority did not carry over into the book histories that have maintained being in the study in the newspaper for the day didn't mean that you're going to be in the annals of our history It did not translate into a certain level of respect and authority so that it got in there.

>> I want to take off from what you mention because women have been let out of a lot of history and then and yes, African-American women to boot.

Do give examples.

Show how some of the trailblazers lets say in the 50's into the 60's, open the door.

>> Maybe for the 70's movements.

Let's let's let's state some names and some examples.

Sophia I think on a national front, Dorothy Height, Dorothy Height was a pivotal person in involved with the planning of the march on Washington.

She was she she was a powerful orator everybody love to hear her speak and she was on the stage.

But she wasn't allowed to speak.

Men often, although women did a lot of the organized, right.

So when you were the ones that kind of made sure that people knew about the march on Washington, they prepare pamphlets.

Dorothy Height it at the time was the president of the National Council of Negro Women.

And so they have their headquarters in Washington, D.C., is where they plan did a lot of the planning for the march on Washington.

But she wasn't allowed to speak.

because men kind of took the forefront.

We can move right on to the civil rights movement in one of the pivotal organizers for the civil rights movement somebody that most people don't know about was Ella Baker, Ella Baker had her hands in every single thing.

She was pivotal to the the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.

She was pivotal to be to the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.

She was the one that will organize and student.

She mentored people like Rosa Parks.

She mentored Fannie Lou Hamer.

She mentored Diane Nash some of these women that also got pushed to the backburner because Dr. Martin Luther King was the speaker.

He was the face of the civil rights movement.

John Lewis was the face of the civil rights movement, Marion Barry.

But the women got pushed aside even though they were doing a lot of the work.

>> The primary organizers of those movements, right?

And yet they were so how do we then open the door as too When we started acknowledging when the country started acknowledging the role of women and what their history that, you know, we deserve a right to be in the history of American history of our states and our counties and local governments.

>> When I was first in Michigan during the 1990's, I took it upon myself to represent a group and go to social studies hearings in front of the state Board of Education and there were core curriculum is curriculum written standards on this stuff.

And the word woman, words, woman, women were not used any where gender was used once in the preface but not used anywhere.

Despite the fact that women's history differs from mens.

politically religiously, economically, socially in every possible way.

We still need that to be in better.

But I think since second wave insistences and Title XI help that we've made some headway in getting that out there and certainly in Grand Rapids, you're absolutely right.

The Greater Grand Rapids Women's History Council, has been around for 35 years now and using volunteers.

It takes a lot of time to research some things you need just the right person for particular project.

And so, but it has it has an effect it builds on that note.

>> You recently did have a celebration, and you brought up those who were in politics in Grand Rapids.

You want to throw out a name here who are out trailblazers in politics?

>> The suffrage movement was always running women for office when they could.

It was almost always school board.

And in Grand Rapids, women started running for the school board in 1886. the first woman won in 1887 and by, women were fully enfranchised in Michigan on Nov in November of 1918.

We didn't need the 19th amendment technically.

So in 1919, 1920, they could run for any office they wanted to and they did for comptroller the city commission and there were several state-level races and that's the one that one Eva McCall Hamilton ran for state Senate and won.

So the next woman from Grand Rapids in the state Senate, we're putting the House aside now is Winnie Brinks present-day, Wow.

So their their backs and forths.

But there's we did rehearse.

The long history of women running for office is ups and downs after the first wave.

But coming into the 1970's once again, those same way that early women rode the coattails of the abolitionist movement.

I think the feminist movement wrote the coattails of the civil rights movement.

Lot of women is Sophia, his mansion saying we're allowed to do licon stick, but we're more talented than that and we want to roll here.

And so we had a huge surge of women starting to run in the 70's and the 80's in the 90's.

But we can't be complacent.

Even after the year 2000, one single woman was again on the county board of commissioners by herself.

Now there are 9 and I think 27 something like that.

>> But what are some of the other areas in addition to politics where we see outstanding women making strive to who made history and then open the door for others or those who are currently doing that?

>> I think we can start off as early as the 1700 with for me of African-American, The first African-American to publish a book was Phyllis Wheatley.

So so that the way to Ida B Wells in she's up from famous journalist who edited her own newspaper, who owns her own newspaper and who published and fought for rights really publicly in her writings in what she published.

And so I think we can move ahead to Other instances as well like literary writers.

let's say, for instance, Jane Austin, Ah yes.

the The Bront ë Sisters.

Charlotte and Emily Van Tate when they published really early in in the in the 19th century, kind of led to giving women voice voice as well.

>> Sophia has mentioned most the writers and we know about the power of the pen.

But women there and mentioned add to that women journalists.

And in fact, it was tough I mean women Journalists were always in the back of the room, but they for in there with foresight.

I think that the Herald stopped Etta Smith Wilson, half Native American woman who graduated from Central High School was connected to people in time whether she would come on board as the women's page editor.

And in fact, she did she was is were they want to sneak away by a Detroit paper?

But she was just she was just phenomenal.

So that still writing during the 19th century, it education is the at the base.

Everything women were getting into colleges and things getting even a higher education in high schools.

Usually they started self educating and again rattling the doors, women's colleges were started.

They started training enough women to staff these colleges.

And when that started, professional doors began opening with women knocking on them.

In fact, one of the earliest women attorneys in Grand Rapids was here.

She hung out her shingle in 1878 advertising in the paper.

Hers is a tough story.

But at that point, Charlotte Rae nationally had graduated from Howard Law School in Washington and had a tough time.

Had hard times.

Publishing are practicing, but it's also to most people wouldn't think this.

It was easier to go to medical school for women, then to go to law school because of women's lack of legal standing and women had bodies.

So women who could go to medical school had a lot, a lot of business out there and their ups and downs in all of this field.

But we also from Grand Rapids, have a wonderful woman A painter miniatures named Eulabee Dix.

The National Women's Art Museum in Washington did a book on her.

We have a woman who is blind Birdie Griffith who started the a center for the blind and visually impaired Association for the blind and visually impaired.

Our own Helen Keller.

in virtually every field They might have been alone for a while, but women were there.

What about sports?

You mentioned Title XI a couple times.

I throw me out of sports figure that I'm to say one thing turned over.

Okay.

Haha.

Mississippi just beats Stanford in the NCAA women's national tournaments.

Stanford was a number one seed has been for years and Ole Miss came along and defeated them on their home floor.

Their coach said this is been a long time coming, but our players are starting to believe in themselves.

And that's a direct result of Title XI and women believing in themselves that the basis of so much.

That's huge.

>> When we think about how women were able to organize themself in star preserving the history, we have to bring in the fact that a lot of women join clubs.

women's organizations very early on in those clubs helped to educate and give women confidence to be able to speak up the WCTU you like the women's on the Women's Christian Temperance Union gave women voice.

And so there was a local woman here up from here from Grand Rapids named Emma Ford.

Who joined the WCTU.

It was integrated here in in the north and she was able to travel in Set of WCTU organizations in in Lansing and Kalamazoo and Battle Creek.

And this was in the 8.

This was in the late 18 90's.

>> Well, and again, women weren't allowed to join.

weren't allowed to join the clubs and then we're in the middle of the 80's.

And speaking of men, wouldn't we see what would you like to see from men as we move forward?

We continue to preserve history.

We continue to want to make history.

>> R E S P E C T. They hope to start the ball rolling here.

There's so much we could talk about basically bottom level.

I think a lot of men have been informing themselves a little bit more about women have been a little more able and willing to take on domestic chores.

There's been a little bit of loosening in some of the very rigid gender rules that all of us would be aware of.

And I think that as men generally start accepting women into their lives in different ways, they'll become more interested in, invest it in, say women's history and just their their roles in the world.

And what happens?

Why is it so difficult to you know what?

What could we've always done it this way.

This is what we don't want to break.

The rules are the old way of doing anything, whatever and men also pay a price being seen as feminine it by pals.

Women have really had to be overqualified a lot of situations to become a wedge in to certain world.

I think it's more we've had enough women bosses now for that to be a situation is not unheard of.

But, yeah, it just takes lots of time with lots of individuals.

Well, we've got a vice president, a female vice president and African American and their right, right.

And so you would think that that kind of seals the deal, but it's much in the same way as having an African-American.

>> President either still so much work to do because that word that you mention R E S P E C T respect is what's on the line and the preservation of that history.

I think it's also is that part of it as well?

I think just pull believing in respecting that position, adding that that's their right.

>> When we talk about men, we have to bring in the word Power.

We have to talk about power and influence.

And so if you give the mic, if you let a woman speak, you had given her power influence.

And so so the dominant narrative is that the power and influence belong to the male gender.

And so given that how is like saying I'm given up my influence so that you can become more influential and so on.

And so I think when we that ask of men is to amplify women's voices.

>> So to to get women representation given the microphone exactly.

going to want to share the stage.

Yes, yeah.

And allow that to happen.

I'll go back to Ole Miss and Stanford briefly, their long pipelines getting enough women into certain roles that they become models and people think they can follow them.

there's not the same parity in women's basketball nationally as there been has been in men's basketball which is made it much more competitive for the men.

You can get much better players and different teams.

That's not been so much the case in women.

The the first seeds have always been expected to go all the way.

Where as 2 for this year have been knocked out and it's hard for me.

This is progress, but it it's there.

Many more of female players who are just there to choose from in making choices in every field and Title XI wasn't just about sports, more importantly about broader education and other rights as well.

Absolutely.

>> So, of course, both of you are involved in collecting and providing this deeper look at women's history, so appreciated.

So how do we now in this 21st century continue to highlight and preserve that history, the trailblazing the impact making, especially in this high-tech age as as we look at that, making sure that history isn't rewritten of sorts without us.

>> We continue to digitize the archives.

We continue to make the diaries on the minutes of many of the meetings from women's clubs available so that they can be searched.

And look that to on the Internet, we continue to have conversations with with with programs like this podcast, that kind of highlight women.

But there's also this idea, you know, this been this discussion about creating this augmented reality like doing reality videos instead of where you can kind of go back to the suffrage movement and plant yourself right in this movement.

With Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Ida B Wells and kind of demonstrating that in real time.

So those kinds of things are some of the things that that I think will will help in this high-tech where but also just of continuing to dive in and in and promote women on social media pages, not just on their birthdays but on anniversaries, significant event.

>> And women promoting women.

absolutely.

Yeah.

And getting that information out there about what women have done and definitely that history that knowledge, a lot of people just don't know that that is so many that we you listed a number of women early when you're talking about the different movements of different things.

How many people know those women?

How do we get those names?

I mean, you know, the popular once, you know, the ones that kind of everyone maybe teach us that might be classroom lesson or something that there's so many.

>> Women who have made an impact that are not well known, you know, and that's that study of history and that information we need to, you know, that's what you guys do.

Knowing one representive woman per movement has been kind of the status of education.

Harriet Tubman might have been the lone African-American as in most people's minds and in Susan B Anthony, the suffragist.

That brings up the question, the notion of firsts and we do deal and that it's important to have that history done.

But behind every first there's been an army of women and women need highlighting the ordinary, which is something that Sophie has been working on and the Women's History Council too, to some extent it's the easy wedge in is the leadership just see women did this and then you start filling in the gaps.

Absolutely.

>> And we continue to need to preserve what Jo Ellyn is doing today.

And Sophia is doing today with Jennifer's doing today and will show leadership.

And Shelley.

so we hope that our next generation steps up to the plate and in hits a home run.

How can we help the council?

Can our community help the council Sophia?

>> Support our events, support our organization, but also I think join organization.

Do research your selves, researcher own genealogy so that you can see see what's significant impact your parents, your great grandparents did to contribute to our communities.

>> Or research the history of journalism, especially in Grand Rapids.

I believe I'm the woman who wrote the novel sob sister, but a woman from Grand Rapids wrote the novel that Sob so-called Sob sisters were part of were suddenly at toward the end of the first wave or an 1920 early 20's.

Women were being sent in to where there's been a murder in and they could sneak around into the back room into the kitchen and talk with people and get big scoops because who are they?

Yeah, we've got the scoop today and we thank you.

use.

Yes, we've had power today.

Thanks to our esteemed guests Sophia Ward Brewer and Jo Ellyn Cleary on behalf of Jennifer Moss.

Maybe I'll write about you.

Thank you for joining us.