>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>>> WHAT AMERICAN VOTERS WANT, A LOOK AT THE PRIMARY RESULTS AND WHAT THEY COULD MEAN IN NOVEMBER WITH OUR POLITICAL ANALYST.

AND WHAT IS THE LATEST WITH KANSAS.

FORM REAR CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT JOINS US ON KANSAS SAYING NO TO ELECTING JUDGES AND WHAT WE CAN LEARN FROM IT.

>>> PLUS, BIOLOGICAL WAR.

AUTHOR ANNIE JACOBSON SPEAKS ABOUT WHAT SHE SAYS IS THE GREATEST OVERALL THREAT THAT WE FACE.

>>> AMANPOUR & CO IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDICE KING WEIRR.

SYLVIA A AND SIMON B. FIGHTING ANTISEMITISM , THEY ARE COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL BRIDGES.

>>> WELCOME.

IN EVERYONE.

SENATE CANDIDATE AFTER A TIGHT RACE WITH THE MODERATOR, HE IS NOW OFFICIALLY THE PRIMARY WINNER.

>> WHAT WE SHOWED IS THE POWER OF OUR MANY IS GREATER THAN THE POWER OF THEIR MONEY.

WHAT WE SHOWED IS IF YOU ARE WILLING TO BUILD A MOVEMENT, BRICK BY BRICK, TRAVEL YOUR STATE AND HAVE THE CONVERSATIONS IN ROOMS BIG AND SMALL, STARTING IN MOMENTS WHERE PEOPLE ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO AN ELECTION BUT PAYING ATTENTION TO THE PRICE OF GAS AND GROCERIES AND HOUSING AND THE PRICE OF HEALTH CARE.

YOU CAN BUILD A CONVERSATION THAT BUILDS INTO A MOVEMENT THAT DEFEATS GOLITH.

THIS IS WHAT YOU ALL SHOWED.

AND, MY HOPE IS THAT OUR DEMOCRACY WILL NEVER BE THE SAME.

>> THE 41-YEAR-OLD DOCTOR WILL GO HEAD-TO-HEAD AGAINST REPUBLICAN MIKE ROGERS, HE IS FEELING GOOD.

THE MICHIGAN CONTEST HAS BEEN WITH THE STANCES ON ISRAEL A CENTRAL ISSUE ON THE CAMPAIGN.

ALTHOUGH HE MAY SCORE A WIN FOR PROGRESSIVE S IT IS A MIXED PICTURE INITIALLY.

LET'S BRING IN RON BROWNSTEIN WITH MORE.

HE WINS BY LESS THAN 1% POINT IN A RACE THAT MOST POLLS SAID HE WOULD WIN BY DOUBLE DIGITS.

YES, A WINS A WIN, THIS WAS A VERY BRUISING AND HEATED CAMPAIGN AS YOU KNOW IN THE FIGHT BETWEEN THE DEMOCRATIC ESTABLISHMENT AND THE PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT.

SO, ON THAT ISSUE, BETWEEN THESE TWO FRACTIONS OF THE PARTY, WHO WON?

>> YEAH.

THIS RACE, I THOUGHT IT WAS A PERFECT RACE OF WHAT WE HAVE BEEN WATCHING ALL YEAR.

BECAUSE, WE HAVE SEEN IN THIS PRIMARY SEASON MORE SYSTEMATIC CONFLICT BETWEEN LEFT AND CENTER IN DEMOCRATIC PRIMARIES THAN AT ANY POINT IN MODERN HISTORY.

CERTAINLY IN THE 40 YEARS I HAVE BEEN COVERING AMERICAN POLITICS.

AND, THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT KNOCK OUT OVER THE OTHER.

EACH SIDE POSTED SIGNIFICANT VICTORIES, CENTER HAS WON, THE GOVERNOR RACE IN CALIFORNIA, THE SENATE NOMINATION IN IOWA, THE SENATE RELATIVE CENTER NOMINATION IN TEXAS.

A NUMBER OF COMPETITIVE HOUSE RACES, THE LEFT POSTED BIG VICTORIES, TOO.

ORIGINAL IN THE MAIN SENATE RACE, OBVIOUSLY, THOSE NEW YORK CANDIDATES.

WHAT IS REALLY SIGNIFICANT ABOUT MICHIGAN AND WHY IT IS THE BIGGEST WIN OF THE LEFT SO FAR IS THAT MOST OF THE LEFT GAINS STILL HAVE CALM, NOT ENTIRELY, THEY HAVE COME IN SAFELY BLUE AREAS WHERE THERE IS NOT A LOT OF COMPETITION IN NOVEMBER.

HE WILL BE THE MOST COMPETITIVE IN NOVEMBER.

IT IS THE BIGGEST SUCCESS SO FAR BUT THE BIGGEST TEST F. HE PARTY INTERPRETATION OF HIS RISE, I THINK, WILL LOOK DIFFERENT THAN THIS MORNING.

>> HE WAS ANYTHING BUT A FLAWED CANDIDATE, DOMESTICALLY FOCUSED ON ISSUES THAT RESINATED WITH VOTERS, WE WILL GET TO THE FOREIGN POLICY ANGLE.

BUT FEW PEOPLE EXPECTED STEVENS TO GET THIS CLOSE.

THREE OF THE FOUR POLLS HAVE HER DOWN BY DOUBLE DIGITS.

WINNING WORKER CLASS COUNTY, LOWER INCOME AND RAN STRONGEST WITH BLACK VOTERS IN DETROIT.

WHAT DID THE POLLING MISS ABOUT HER COALITION AND WHAT IS THE WORK THAT HAS TO BE RECTIFIED IN THE NEXT 2-1/2 MONTHS?

>> YES.

ABSOLUTELY.

YOU KNOW.

ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO, I DESCRIBED PRIMARIES AS USUALLY A CONTEST BETWEEN THE WINE TRACK AND THE BEER TRACK.

AND THE WINE TRACK CANDIDATES WERE THOSE WHO WERE RELIED ON COLLEGE-EDUCATED VOTERS AND BEER TRACK CANDIDATES WERE THROUGH THE PARTY'S HISTORY WHO RELIED ON WORKING CLASS WHITES, BLACK VOTERS AND SENIORS.

THOSE LINES ARE SCRAMBLED IN THE PRESIDENTIAL LEVEL IN THE LAST FEW CYCLES BUT IT WAS A PURE THROW BACK TO A WINE TRACK- BEER TRACK RACE WITH EL-SAYED DOING THE BEST WITH COLLEGE VOTERS AND STEVENS RELYING ON THE BLUE COLLAR OF WORKING CLASS WHITES, BLACK VOTERS AND SENIORS THE POLING OVERESTIMATED THE NUMBER OF YOUNG PEOPLE THAT WOULD VOTE, MAYBE THE NUMBER OF COLLEGE GRADUATES AS WELL.

I WAS IN MICHIGAN OVER THE FINAL DAYS.

YOU KNOW, IT IS CLEAR THERE IS A LOT OF SKEPTICISM ABOUT EL- SAYED, HIS VIEWS, HIS PERSEWNA PERSAWNA THAT HAS BEEN DRIFTING A WAY FROM THE PARTY.

GENERAL ELECTION THAT IS WHERE HE IS STRUGGLING.

HE IS UNDER PERFORMING NOT ONLY STEVENS IN THESE TESTS BUT THE GOVERNOR CANDIDATE EXACTLY THOSE GROUPS, NONCOLLEGE WHITE WOMAN, BLUE COLLAR, THAT IS WHERE REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO PUT THEIR FOCUS AND HE HAS THE MOST WORK TO DO TO KNIT TOGETHER THE DEMOCRATIC COALITION.

>> AS NOTED IT WAS A GRUELING AND HEATED CONTEST.

IN PRIMARY, STEVENS VOWED SHE WOULD SUPPORT THE WINNER AND SHE STANDS BY THAT SUPPORT.

EL-SAYED SAID TODAY THAT TOMORROW WE MEND FENCES, THAT THE PARTY NOW NEEDS TO COME TOGETHER.

HERE IS WHAT ELSE HE SAID TODAY.

>> IT IS ALL OF MY SISTERS AND BROTHERS OF THE JEWISH FAITH OR ANY FAITH AT ALL OR NO FAITH AT ALL, MY COMMITMENT TO SAFETY, JEWISH SAFETY IS THE SAME COMMITMENT THAT I HAVE TO THE SAFETY OF MY OWN DAUGHTERS.

BECAUSE IF THERE IS ONE QUESTION OF A POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY THAT ANIMATES US ALL, WHAT WOULD WE BUILD IN WHAT WOULD WE DO IF WE TREATED ALL OF OUR KIDS LIKE THEY WERE ALL OF OUR KIDS?

>> SO, THAT BRINGS IN THE FOREIGN POLICY CONCERNS AND HIS FOCUS ON APEX SPENDING, FUNDING ISRAEL, AND ALSO, COUPLED WITH CONCERNS OF ANTISEMITISM THAT IS RISEN NOT ONLY IN HIS STATE BUT NATIONWIDE AND AROUND THE WORLD.

HE SAYS HE IS SPEAKING OUT IN SUPPORT OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY, THAT HE WOULD SUPPORT THEM AND PROTECT THEM JUST AS HE WOULD HIS OWN CHILDREN.

BUT, HE, THERE WAS ALSO AN ANTI- SEMITIC ATTACK, A HATE CRIME AT A SYNAGOGUE, THE LARGEST SYNAGOGUE THERE IN THE STATE.

HE RESPONDED TO THAT ATTACK IN MARCH BY SAYING, QUOTE, HURT PEOPLE, HURT PEOPLE.

AND THAT IS A PHRASE HE STOOD SAYING THAT HE WILL FIGHT AGAINST ANTISEMITISM.

WHAT DOES HE NEED TO DO TO, AS IT RELATES TO APPEALING TO JEWISH DEMOCRATIC VOTERS?

>> AND, LOOK, THE PROBLEM GOES BEYOND JEWISH VOTERS, FIRST OF ALL, SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL IN THE U.S.

HAS COLLAPSED IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS, THE ACTIONS OF THE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT IN THE REGION AND THE WAY THEY WERE IN POLITICS RESINERATED GENERATIONS OF SUPPORT IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

80% OF THE VOTERS IN A RECENT POLL SAID THEY HAVE AN UNFAVORABLE POLE, ONLY 5% FAVORABLE VIEW OF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.

SO, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT GOES WAY BEYOND MICHIGAN AND ULTIMATELY WILL LEAD TO REPOSITIONING OF MOST DEMOCRATIC LEADERS ABOUT THE U.S.

POSTURE TOWARDS ISRAEL.

BUT, EVEN WITHIN THAT, YOU KNOW, EL-SAYED HAS BEEN ALMOST FOCUSED ON THE ROLE OF IMPACT, UNDERSTANDABLE, THEY SPEND A LOT OF MONEY AGAINST HIM.

AGAIN, EVEN THIS MORNING IN HIS VICTORY SPEECH HE TALKED MORE ABOUT HIM PREVAILING OVER APAC THAN HE DID ABOUT WHAT HE WOULD DO FOR THE AVERAGE MICHIGAN VOTER, YOU KNOW, WHO IS FEELING SQUEEZED AT THE PUMP AND THE CHECK OUT LINE.

SO, HE DOES HAVE BROADENING TO DO.

IT IS NOT ONLY AMONG JEWISH VOTERS.

I WAS IN THE MOST STRIKING THING THAT I HEARD THE WHOLE FEW DAYS I WAS IN MICHIGAN WAS IN A BLACK CHURCH ON SATURDAY AFTERNOON IN DETROIT WHERE THE MINISTER, WHO IS THE PRESIDENT OF AL STARPER IN, CALLED HIM A ONE HIT WONDER.

THERE ARE, THERE ARE, HIS FOCUS ON ISRAEL, THOUGH, YOU KNOW, NOT OUT OF THE BOUNDS OF WHAT WE ARE HEARING FROM OTHER DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES HE CERTAINLY EMPHASIZES MORE, HE SEEMS MORE, YOU KNOW, STUCK ON THAT, ON THAT ISSUE, AND IT REALLY ISN'T A CONCERN TO HIS BROAD AND ELECTORATE WHEN YOU GET TO A GENERAL.

E SNREEKS --ELECTION.

THEY DOUBTED HE COULD GET THE VOTERS GOING.

AND TRUMP BARELY REGISTERED AND APAC IS SOMETHING THAT WE CONTINUE TO HEAR THROUGHOUT THESE RACES NOT JUST IN MICHIGAN $32 MILLION WAS SPENT AGAINST EL-SAYED THERE, HE WON, CLOSER THAN THEY EXPECTED.

THEY SPENT $3 MILLION FOR PRO- TRUMP, PRO-ISRAEL CANDIDATE, BELL, IN MISSOURI.

HE WON.

SO, SAME NIGHT, OPPOSITE RESULTS, WHAT IS THE LESSON HERE ABOUT THEIR INFLUENCE.

AND THE MONEY HELPED STEVENS BECAUSE PARTICULARLY THEIR ADS ASSOCIATED THEM WITH BARACK OBAMA BUT IT HURT, YOU KNOW, I THINK FOR A LOT OF DEMOCRATIC VOTERS IT IS BECOMING A SYMBOL OF POLITICS AS USUAL AND, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS THE MESSAGE OF MICHIGAN, REALLY?

IS IT DEMOCRATIC VOTERS IN THE STATE DRAMATICALLY SWUNG TO THE LEFT?

HARD TO TAKE THAT INTERPRETATION, THEY LOST FAITH IN THE LEADERSHIP OF THEIR OWN PARTY.

THEY DON'T BELIEVE THE LEADERS WHO SAID THAT STEVENS WAS MORE ELECTABLE THAN EL-SAYED AFTER WATCHING THE DESIN GRADING BIDEN CAMPAIGN.

AND IT IS NOT THAT EL-SAYED CAN NOT WIN, WE WILL TALK ABOUT THAT IN A MOMENT, BUT HIS PATH REASONS WE ARE DISCUSSING, A LOT MORE VULNERABILITIES, WHILE HE HAS STRENGTHS HE HAS CLEAR WEAKNESSES, THERE IS A LOT OF "ME" AND NOT ENOUGH "YOU" IN THE WAY HE PRESENTS THIS TALKING ABOUT HIS MOVEMENT AND THE POLITICS WILL NEVER BE THE SAME BECAUSE HE WON A PRIMARY WHERE A LOT OF MONEY WAS SPENT AGAINST HIM.

THERE IS SOMETHING TO IT THAT I THINK KIND OF CENTERS HIM AND PUTS THE CONCERNS OF VOTERS SECONDARY AS WE SAW IN THE SPEECH THIS MORNING.

>> AND NOW, HE WILL BE FACING MIKE ROGERS, A FORBIDDABLE CANDIDATE, MORE OF A MODERATE REPUBLICAN, TRUMP-ENDORSED.

YOU REPORTED A STRIKING NUMBER THAT THE TRUMP'S NET APPROVAL IS MINUS 20 NOW.

HE IS NOT SOMEONE WHO IS SEEN AS A KEY ALLY, NORMALLY, IN A STATE WHERE, YES, HE WON IN 2024, BUT HE LOST IN 2022.

WITH THOSE VOTES THAT ARE UP FOR GRABS RIGHT NOW, JUST WALK US THROUGH WHAT YOU EXPECT TO SEE FROM BOTH CAMPAIGNS?

MIKE ROGERS AND REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS WITH EL-SAYED IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS?

>> BOY, THERE WILL BE A LOT OF WHAT, POLITICAL STRATEGISTS CALL DOUBLE HATERS, PEOPLE WHO DISAPPROVE OF TRUMP AND SKEPTICAL OF EL-SAYED.

THE BACKDROP IN THIS, TRUMP'S FIRST TERM, 2018 AND 2020, COLLINS OF THE ONLY REPUBLICAN SENATE INCUMBENT OR CHALLENGER WHO WON IN A STATE WHERE MORE VOTERS DISAPPROVED THAN APPROVED OF THE JOB PERFORMANCE ACCORDING TO THE EXIT POLLS, RIGHT NOW IN THE LATEST POLL, 62, 63% OF VOTERS DISAPPROVE OF TRUMP'S PERFORMANCE IN MICHIGAN.

BY THOSE FUNDAMENTALS A DEMOCRAT SHOULD BE ABLE TO WIN THIS SEAT.

I THINK THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT EL-SAYED RUNS UP TO THE FUNDAMENTALS, IN FACT, THE QUESTION IS, DO THEY GIVE HIM ENOUGH CUSHION TO SURVIVE ANY WAY?

IT IN 2024, WHEN MIKE ROGERS NARROWLY LOST IN MICHIGAN, 51% OF THE VOTERS SAID THEY HAD UNFAVORABLE VIEW OF DONALD TRUMP.

MIKE ROGERS WON 10% OF IT.

THAT IS WHAT ROUGHLY EVERY REPUBLICAN SENATE CANDIDATE IN TRUMP'S FIRST TERM BUT COLLINS COULD WIN.

ONLY WON 10% WHO HAD AN UNFAVORABLE VIEW OF TRUMP N. THIS ELECTION, 60% OF MICHIGAN VOTERS WILL HAVE AN UNFAVORABLE VIEW OF TRUMP.

MIKE ROGERS BACK TO WIN NEARLY TWICE AS MANY.

ALMOST 20% OF THEM.

THAT IS THE TASK THAT HE FACES, AGAINST EL-SAYED IT IS POSSIBLE.

IT IS NOT GUARANTEED FOR ROGERS EVEN AGAINST HIM.

YOU WILL HAVE A LOT OF VOTERS, I THINK, THAT DISAPPROVE OF TRUMP AND ARE DUBIOUS OF EL- SAYED AND WHAT DO THE DOUBT HATERS DECIDE MICHIGAN.

>> AND FOCUS IN ON WHAT TURNOUT WILL LOOK LIKE, TOO.

IN THERE REAL QUICK?

>> YES.

MORE THAN 500,000 MORE DEMOCRATS THAN REPUBLICANS VOTED LAST NIGHT IN MICHIGAN.

THAT IS A REMINDER WHILE EL- SAYED IS A FLAWED CANDIDATE THERE ARE FUNDAMENTALS HERE WORKING AGAINST REPUBLICANS, MICHIGAN IS THE LATEST EVIDENCE, DEMOCRATIC VOTERS ARE A LOT MORE ENERGIZED.

>> AND TWO MORE PRIMARIES I KNOW YOU ARE LOOKING AT IN TWO DIFFERENT STATES, WISCONSIN, DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST THAT IS GAINING COMMENTS, AND DID NOT DISENVOW THIS WEEK ABOUT CANCELING THANKSGIVING, SHE HAS EMERGED AS A FRONT-RUNNER AS THE AUGUST 11th PRIMARY AND ALL IN MINNESOTA A HIGH STAKES PRIMARY AS WELL.

WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT.

>> WELL, LOOK, I MEAN, THE MINUTE THE WISCONSIN GOVERNOR'S RACE IS THE MOST SIGNIFICANT OF THOSE, TOO.

BUT, THE CLEAREST PATHWAY BACK TO THE WHITE HOUSE FOR DEMOCRATS IN 2028 IS TO RECAPTURE MICHIGAN, PENNSYLVANIA, WISCONSIN, THE THREE STATES TRUMP DISLODGED FROM WHAT I CALL THE BLUE WALL.

YOU KNOW, WE WILL HAVE A TEST OF WHAT APPROACH WORKS BEST.

YOU HAVE A CENTRIST DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE IN MICHIGAN.

AND A LEFT CANDIDATE FOR SENATE IN MICHIGAN WHO IS GOING TO RUN BETTER?

IN WISCONSIN THE PATH FOR THE CENTER IS TOUGHER.

THERE ARE FEWER BLACK VOTERS IN WISCONSIN THAN MICHIGAN AND THE BLACK VOTERS ARE OF MODERATION.

MADISON AND KIND OF THE COLLEGE EDUCATED YOUNG LEFT NEXUS POWERFUL FORCE.

BUT, HONG, THE SOCIALIST WHO MIGHT BE NOMINATED FOR GOVERNOR SAY WEAKER CANDIDATE IN THE GENERAL ELECTION AS EL-SAYED.

HER OPPONENT IS A MORE MAGA- REPUBLICAN IDENTIFIED MORE UPHILL TO WIN IF SHE IS NOMINATED THAT WILL GIVE CONTROL IN 2028 TO AN ELECTION DENIER, SERIOUS ISSUE FOR DEMOCRATS IN IT HAPPENS.

MINNESOTA ANOTHER LEFT CENTER, FLANIGAN, THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR LEADS CRAIG, THE CENTRIST, A MEMBER OF CONGRESS.

LESS RISK OF LOSE THAT SEAT WITH FLANIGAN THAN HONG OR EL- SAYED.

IT HAS BEEN A FIGHT, BUT THE LEFT IS FINISHING STRONG AND I THINK IT CARRIES THROUGH 2028.

I WILL SAY AS I SAID AT THE START, WHAT HAPPENS IN THE GENERAL ELECTION FOR EL-SAYED AND HONG IF SHE IS NOMINATED.

IT WILL HAVE A BIG IMPACT IF THE LEFT COMES OUT OF '26 WITH BURST OF MOMENTUM OR DEFLATED HEADING INTO THE '20 PRIMARIES.

>> AND WE WILL HAVE TO SEE WHERE WE ARE IN TERMS OF THE WAR WITH IRAN, THE ECONOMY, SO MANY OTHER FACTORS THAT COULD IMPACT THIS RACE.

>> YEP.

>> BETWEEN NOW AND THEN.

YOU WROTE THAT THE NEW DNC CALENDAR MAKES MICHIGAN THE PIVOTAL EARLY SHOWDOWN BETWEEN LEFT AND CENTER.

I AM FASCINATED BY THIS DEBATE.

IF WE CAN HAVE SORT OF A BIG PARTY OR IF THERE IS MORE TURMOIL THAN MEETS THE EYE NOW.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE RESULTS FROM LAST NIGHT IN MICHIGAN YOU AND ARE GAVIN NEWSOM, KAMALA HARRIS, ALL OF THESE NAMES THROWN OUT AS POTENTIAL PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES IN THOSE THAT MAY BE SEEKING THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDACY AND NOMINATION IN 2028, HOW DO THEY INTERPRET LAST NIGHT'S RESULT?

WHAT ARE THEY THINKING?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THEY ARE THINKING WHAT I WROTE.

MICHIGAN IS THE TIPPING POINT IN THAT EARLY CALENDAR.

DEMOCRATS ANOINTED SIX STATES TO BE THE EARLY TESTS BEFORE EVERYBODY ELSE CAN VOTE STARTING ON MARCH 7th, 2028.

THREE OF THOSE LEAN TOWARDS THE NEVADA, NEW HAMPSHIRE, NEW MEXICO, THEY ARE TWO, THREE, FOUR, SOUTH CAROLINA WILL FAVOR A MODERATE CANDIDATE.

BUT, ABOVE ALL, SOMEONE THAT CAN GENERATE IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

THE LAST ONE, VIRGINIA, HAVING A HISTORY OF ELECTING MODERATE DEMOCRATS LIKE ABGAL ABIGALSPARBURNER, SANDERS NARROWLY BEAT CLINTON THERE, JOE BIDEN BEAT BERNIE THERE IN 2020 AND THE PRIMARY, WHAT YOU SAW LAST NIGHT IS THAT IN A PRETTY FAIR FIGHT IT WAS ALMOST EVENLY DIVIDED.

YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY IF WHITMER HAD WON IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT.

SHE WOULD OF BEATEN EL-SAYED, BUT WHAT IT TELLS NEWSOM IS THAT THE LEFT OR CENTER CAN WIN IN MICHIGAN AND I THINK IT IS REALLY GOING TO BE, LAST NIGHT, UNDER SCORED HOW CRITICAL IT IS GOING TO BE ELECTING THE NEXT DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE >> FASCINATING FOR YOU, THOUGH, PROFESSIONALLY TO FOLLOW IT ALL AS IT WILL BE FOR US AS JOURNALISTS.

RON, GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> IN KANSAS, VOTERS DID DELIVER ONE DECISIVE RESULT, THEY REJECTED A REPUBLICAN PROPOSAL TO DIRECTLY ELECT THE STATE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES.

IT IS A POWER WIELDED BY THE GOVERNOR AN OFFICE HELD BY DEMOCRATS SINCE 2019.

THE GOP PROPOSING MAKING THEM ELECTED.

IT WAS CLOSELY WATCHED GIVEN THAT THE KANSAS SUPREME COURT RULED IN 2019 THAT THE STATE CONSTITUTION PROTECTED THE RIGHT TO ABORTION.

SERVING FOR YEARS AS CHIEF JUSTICE OF KANSAS SUPREME COURT AND SINCE STEPPING DOWN SPENDING MUCH OF THE TIME PROMOTING JUDICIAL INDEPENDENCE AND THE RULE OF LAW.

HE JOINS US NOW FROM TOPEKA, KANSAS.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR TAKING FOR OUR VIEWERS WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THERE AMENDMENT THAT WAS VOTED DOWN, TALK ABOUT WHAT IT ACTUALLY WOULD HAVE MEANT IF PASSED.

>> WELL, KANSAS IN THE LAST, SINCE 1958 HAS HAD A MERIT SELECTION SYSTEM FOR OUR SUPREME COURT JUSTICES.

AND THIS AMENDMENT AS YOU INDICATED WOULD CHANGE THAT SYSTEM SO IT WOULD BE DIRECT ELECTION OF JUSTICES.

AND, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN LEFT UP TO THE KANSAS LEGISLATURE TO LATER TO DETERMINE IF THE ELECTIONS WERE PARTISAN OR NONPARTISAN.

BASICALLY, ANYONE WHO WANTED TO BE ON THE SUPREME COURT, AS LONG AS THEY WERE AT LEAST 30 YEARS OLD AND 10 YEARS OF PRACTICE, AND THEY WERE ALSO ADMITTED TO PRACTICE IN KANSAS, THEY COULD RUN FOR THIS OFFICE.

AND THAT, OF COURSE, MEANS THEY WOULD BE OUT, PERHAPS, AMONG OUR 105 COUNTIES TRYING TO RAISE MONEY, GIVING CAMPAIGN SPEECHES AND MAKING CAMPAIGN PROMISES IN HOPES THEY CAN THEN BE ELECTED TO THE SUPREME COURT.

OR A SIX-YEAR TERM.

AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH FOR THE LEGISLATURE TO DECIDE IF THOSE SEVEN POSITIONS ON THE COURT WOULD EACH BE FOR A PARTICULAR GEOGRAPHIC DISTRICT OR IF THE ELECTIONS WOULD HAVE BEEN STATEWIDE.

--AND FORTUNATELY FOR US, KANSAS BY OVER 60% OF VOTING SAID NO, WE DON'T WANT THAT SYSTEM.

>> AND, IN ADDITION TO WHAT WOULD OF ENDED THE STATE'S NEARLY 70 YEAR MERIT SYSTEM FOR PICKING SUPREME COURT JUSTICES, YOU ALSO POINT TO POLLING THAT SHOWS THAT THE STATE SUPREME COURT IS THE MOST TRUSTED PUBLIC INSTITUTION IN KANSAS MORE THAN THE LEGISLATURES THAT ARE ACTUALLY PUSHING FOR THIS CHANGE.

AMENDMENT FOR THOSE WHO WERE PUSHING, WHAT PROBLEM DID THEY THINK THEY WERE SOLVING BY DOING THIS?

>> WELL, IT IS IMPORTANT THAT I GIVE EVERYBODY A LITTLE BIT OF BACKGROUND TO THIS.

IN 2019, THE KANSAS SUPREME COURT CHIEF JUSTICE ISSUED A DECISION CALLED HODIES.

IN THERE WE SAID THERE WAS A RIGHT TO ABORTION FOUND IN THE KANSAS CONSTITUTION.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF CONSERVATIVE LEGISLATURES AND OTHER POLITICIANS WHO DID NOT LIKE THAT RULING AND THEY DECIDED THAT THEY WANTED TO GET THAT CHANGED.

WHICH, OF COURSE, IS HOW THINGS ARE DONE IN A CONSTITUTIONAL- BASED SYSTEM IF YOU DON'T LIKE A RULING FROM THE SUPREME COURT YOU CAN GET THE AMENDMENT, EXCUSE ME, YOU CAN GET THE CONSTITUTION CHANGED TO COMPORT WITH WHAT YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE.

AS A RESULT THE LEGISLATURE GOT A PROPOSED AMENDMENT ON THE BALLOT IN THE PRIMARY AND LEGISLATURE DECIDED NOT TO PUT IT ON THE BALLOT IN THE GENERAL ELECTION BUT CHOSE TO DO IT WITH THE PRIMARY WHERE THERE IS USUALLY A LESS OF A VOTER TURNOUT.

THAT AMENDMENT THAT WOULD OF MODIFIED IT, FAILED BY ABOUT A 60% TO 40% MARGIN.

AND THEN, ABOUT A MONTH OR TWO LATER, A PROMINENT KANSAS POLITICIAN, WAS QUOTED IN THE NEWSPAPER SAYING WE DID NOT GET WHAT WE WANT, THERE IS ANOTHER WAY TO DO THIS, WE WILL CHANGE THE PRESENT KANSAS CONSTITUTION THAT PROVIDES FOR MERIT SELECTION OF JUSTICES OR CHANGE IT TO ELECTIVE PRECISIONS AND THEN I WANT TO READ WHAT HE HAD SAID.

WOULD CLEAR A PATH FOR THE STATE QUOTE SLOWLY AND QUIETLY, UNQUOTE, PLACE JUDGES ON THE HIGH COURT WITH THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF OVERTURNING THE KANSAS SUPREME COURT 2019 DECISION THAT FOUND THE STATE CONSTITUTION INCLUDES THE RIGHT TO AN ABORTION."

SO, HE ADMIT THAT IS WHAT HE WAS UP TO.

AND, THERE HAS BEEN A SIMILAR ADMISSION BY ANOTHER PROMINENT STATE POLITICIAN.

HE IS A LEADER IN THE KANSAS LEGISLATURE.

AND, LAST NOVEMBER, HE SAID BASICALLY THE SAME THING TO YET ANOTHER NEWSPAPER AND MADE IT CLEAR THAT THIS WAS AN ABORTION ISSUE.

CALL IT IN DISGUISE.

THEY WERE QUOTING IN THE CAMPAIGN, ALL ABOUT DEMOCRACY, RESTORING THE RIGHT TO KANSAS.

WHAT WAS IN FACT THE PASSED THEY WERE GOING TO SLOWLY AND QUIETLY ELECT ANTI- ABORTION JUSTICES TO THE COURT AND OVER TIME THEY WOULD OVERTURN IT.

>> AND NOT SO QUIETLY GIVEN THE STATEMENT THAT YOU JUST RED.

NOW IT STATED OUT LOUD, LEADING TO THE QUESTION GO THEY STOP HERE?

THIS AMENDMENT FAILED.

CLEARLY NOT SPEAKING FOR THE MAJORITY OF KANSAS AT THIS POINT.

AND YET, ATTORNEY GENERAL DID NOT CONCEDE THIS ARGUMENT, HE TOLD SUPPORTERS THAT THE COURTS ARE QUOTE AN UPHILL BATTLE BUT A BATTLE THAT I LOVE TO FIGHT.

SO, HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THAT RESPONSE?

>> WELL, I INTERPRET THAT AS MEANING YES, THE BATTLE IS NOT OVER, JUST LIKE HE SAID IN SEPTEMBER OF 2022, AFTER HIS EFFORTS TO AMEND THE CONSTITUTION FAILED.

ONCE AGAIN HE IS SAYING WE FAILED AGAIN BUT, THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO DO THIS.

I AM NOT SURE WHAT HE HAS IN MIND OTHER THAN POSSIBLY TRYING TO FIND SECRETLY, IF YOU WILL, SOMEBODY TO APPLAUD THE COURT UNDER OUR MERIT ELECTION SYSTEM WHO SHARES HIS VIEWS ON ABORTION, BUT TELLS THAT CANDIDATE PLEASE DON'T TELL ANYBODY ABOUT THIS OR ELSE THERE IS A CHANCE THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU MAY NOT BE RECOMMENDED FOR THE COURT.

AND POTENTIALLY, I SUPPOSE, THAT PERSON WHO WOULD KEEP QUIET AND, AND HIS HOPES THAT PERSON WOULD BE ONE OF THE THREE NOMINATED BY THE NOMINATED COMMISSION, HAVING GONE THROUGH THAT APPLICATION PROCESS, AND THEN HOPEFULLY GOVERNOR.

I CAN'T THINK OF ANY OTHER WAY WHERE HIS DESIRES WOULD BE ACCOMPLISHED.

HE HAS PROVEN TO BE RESOURCEFUL IN THE PAST AND I SUSPECT THEY WILL TRY TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING ELSE.

AGAIN.

IT IS CONTRARY TO THE WILL OF THE KANSAS VOTERS TWICE NOW.

SO, I AM NOT SURE WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO.

>> YEAH, THAT ARGUMENT IS CLEAR, I AM JUST WONDERING IF YOU CAN EXPLAIN TO OUR VIEWERS WHAT IS, WHAT IS WRONG IN YOUR VIEW WITH AN ELECTED SUPREME COURT?

BECAUSE, WE DO HAVE ELECTED COUNTY JUDGES IN THIS COUNTRY, FOR EXAMPLE.

SO, WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE ON THAT POINT?

>> WELL, A FRIEND OF MINE EXPLAINED THEIR DIFFERENCE TO ME AND THAT IS IN THE POSSIBLE EVENT THAT ONE OF OUR CROWD JUDGES, WHO WAS ELECTED RULED IN FAVOR OF A CAMPAIGN BECAUSE THEY WERE A CAMPAIGN DONOR.

AND THAT CASE THEN GOT APPEALED.

THEN THE KANSAS SUPREME COURT COULD TAKE CARE OF THAT PROBLEM.

BUT, IF A JUSTICE OR JUSTICES ON THE COURT WERE ELECTED AND THEY DECIDED TO PLEASE THEIR CAMPAIGN DONORS, AND RULE IN FAVOR OF THE DONORS THERE IS NO PLACE ELSE TO GO TO GET THAT CORRECTED.

SO, THAT WOULD BE ONE INCIDENT.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT JUST THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT HAS GONE IN FOR THIS PARTICULAR AMENDMENT.

FOR BOTH SIDES, ADVOCATES AND THOSE WHO WERE OPPOSED TO IT, NEARLY $13 MILLION.

LEONARD LEO, ANTI-ABORTION ACTIVIST GROUCHES ON ONE SIDE.

YOU HAVE ACLU, PLANNED PARENTHOOD ON THE OTHER SIDE.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS A GOOD THING HERE?

>> WELL, THAT GETS BACK TO THE POINT THAT WE DISCUSSED A FEW MINUTES AGO AND THAT IS WHEN YOU ARE ELECTING JUSTICES, AS WAS EVIDENCE BY THE WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT RACE ABOUT A YEAR AGO, YOU HAVE SOME OF THE SAME DONORS INVOLVED AND THEIR PLAN IS TO GET JUSTICE ON THE COURT TO FOLLOW THEIR PERSONAL AGENDA.

I TALKED WITH A FORMER CHIEF JUSTICE OF A STATE.

SHE WAS ELECTED AS CHIEF JUSTICE.

SHE OPPOSES THE ELECTION SYSTEM BECAUSE SHE SAYS EVEN THOUGH I NEVER VOTED IN FAVOR OF THE CAMPAIGN DONOR IN ANY CASE, HOW AM I GOING TO PERSUADE THE VOTERS OF THE STATE THAT JUSTICE IS NOT FOR SALE?

THAT THE COURTS ARE NOT FOR SALE?

AND, THAT, AND I WOULD JUST SAY KANSAS BY VOTING DOWN THIS AMENDMENT BASICALLY SAID WE ARE NOT GOING TO OPEN THE DOOR TO THAT ROOM WHERE WE ARE GOING TO SUSPECT WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON, IF FAVORS WERE MADE AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO SUSPECT WHAT WAS GOING ON AND, WE ARE NOT GOING TO LOSE FAITH IN OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.

THAT IS A BIG MOVE ON THEIR PART >> DOES THAT-DOES THAT MOVE LAST NIGHT FROM KANSAS DOES THAT GIVE YOU HOPE FOR OTHER STATES FOR OTHER STATE SUPREME COURTS AND JUSTICE ON THAT FRONT?

>> WELL, I BELIEVE IN KANSAS VOTERS AND WHEN THEY ARE PROVIDED WITH THE TRUTH AND NOT MISREPRESENTATIONS IN CAMPAIGNS, THEY WILL MAKE A GOOD SOUND DECISION.

I MAY NOT PERSONALLY AGREE WITH THE DECISION BUT AT LEAST THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND MADE THEIR DECISION.

AND MY UNDERSTANDING WAS THAT THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE AROUND THE COUNTRY WATCHING THIS VOTE IN KANSAS BECAUSE IF IT WERE SUCCESSFUL THEN THAT WOULD ENCOURAGE SOME POLITICIANS IN OTHER STATES TO GET THEIR SYSTEMS CHANGED AS WELL.

>> FORMER CHIEF JUSTICE, THANK YOU FOR THE TIME, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU, IT WAS MY PLEASURE.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO UKRAINE.

AT LEAST 17 PEOPLE WERE KILLED AND DOZENS OF PEOPLE INJURED AS RUSSIA FIRED ANTIBOLLISTIC MISSILES NONE OF WHICH WERE ARE INTERCEPTED BY DEFENSES.

IT IS THE WORSENING DANGER FOR URBAN CIVILIANS FAR FROM THE FRONTLINES AS UKRAINE GRAPPLES WITH LOW STOCKS OF MISSILE INTERCEPTORS.

IN RUSSIA, IT IS GROWING WITH BLACK WIDOW SCAMS, WOMAN ENTERING SHAM MARRIAGES WITH SOLDIERS TO CLAIM DEATH BENEFITS IF THEY ARE KILLED.

.

>> MASS WEDDING OF RUSSIAN SOLDIERS BEFORE THEY ARE PACKED OFF TO THE FRONTLINES.. >> I WANT TO SHAKE YOUR HAND AND THANK YOU FOR NOT RUNNING AWAY FOR NOT BEING SCARED.

>> NOT ALL MARRIAGES ARE FOR LOVE.

>> RUSSIAN MILITARY WIVES GET THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS COMPENSATION IF THEIR HUSBANDS ARE KILLED IN ACTION.

OFFICIALS SAY RUTHLESS SCAMMERS DUBBED BLACK WIDOWS ARE TRICKING VULNERABLE RECRUITS INTO WEDLOCK.

THE FATHER OF MARIA DIED AFTER BEING SHOT IN UKRAINE LAST YEAR.

SHE TOLD ME SHE ONLY FOUND OUT HE WAS KILLED AND ONLY THEN DID HE HAVE A NEW WIFE.

[ CRYING ] >> HOW DID YOU FEEL WHEN YOU FOUND OUT THAT YOUR DAD HAD GOTTEN MARRIED JUST DAYS BEFORE HE WENT OFF TO WAR?

[ SPEAKING NON-ENGLISH ] >> Translator: IT FELT UNREAL WHEN I WAS ISSUED THE DEATH CERTIFICATE THEY ASKED IF HE WAS MARRIED I SAID FLOW BUT THEY TOLD ME HE WAS.

I DID NOT CONTACT THE WOMAN.

I DID NOT KNOW WHAT TO SAY TO HER BECAUSE I SUSPECTED IT WAS A SCAM.

>> IT IS JUST ONE SUSPECTED CASE IN A GROWING NUMBER SCANDALIZING RUSSIA.

WITH THE WAR IN UKRAINE NOW IN ITS FIFTH YEAR AND CASUALTY RATES AT CATASTROPHIC HEIGHTS IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE THERE ARE PEOPLE MARRYING YOUNG MEN AND ENCOURAGING THEM TO JOIN THE MILITARY TO GET BENEFITS IF THEY ARE KILLED ON THE FRONTLINES, NO WONDER THERE IS OUTRAGE ACROSS RUSSIA OF THE SPREAD OF THESE BLACK WIDOW SCAMS.

[ SPEAKING NON-ENGLISH ] >> NUMEROUS ALLEGATIONS OF RECRUITS HONEY TRAPPED BEFORE DYING ON THE FRONTLINES, MARRYING ON THEIR DEATHBEDS IN THE HOSPITAL.

THIS WOMAN, MARRIED A SOLDIER 10 DAYS AFTER MEETING HIM AND POSTED IMAGES OF HERSELF WITH OTHER MEN BRANDED A BLACK WIDOW IN THE RUSSIA MEDIA AND DENIED COMPENSATION WHEN HER HUSBAND WAS KILLED BEFORE THE DIVORCE WENT THROUGH SHE DENIED WRONGDOING SAY THE ALLEGATIONS BLACKENED HER NAME.

[ SPEAKING NON-ENGLISH ] BUT THIS GROWING PUBLIC ANGER HAS CYNICAL SOME RUSSIANS ARE ABOUT THE WAR.

THE GREMLIN CALLS ITS SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION.

IF I WANT AN APARTMENT WHERE AM I SUPPOSED TO GET THE MONEY IT IS SIMPLE, GUEST SAID, FIND A MAN SERVING IN THE MILITARY OPERATION WHEN HE IS KILLED GET $8 MILLION RUBLES, SHE LAUGHS.

THE PODCASTERS WERE PROSECUTED AND FORCED TO APOLOGIZE, A RARE INTERVENTION BY THE RUSSIAN COURTS.

BACK IN ST.

PETERSBERG, MARIA TAKES HER TO THE BLOCK WHERE HER DAD'S OLD APARTMENT HAS BEEN SOLD OFF, CONVINCED HE WAS SCAMMED OUT OF HIS HOME.

>> DO YOU KNOW WHO THE NEW OWNER IS?

HOW LONG, HOW MANY YEARS DID YOUR DAD LIVE HERE.

>> FIVE YEARS.

THIS IS IT.

IT IS OPEN.

>> BEHIND THE BROKEN DOOR.

THE NEW OCCUPANTS INSIST IT WAS A LEGITIMATE SALE AND THAT THEY NEVER MET THE SELLER.

>> IT MEANS THE MONEY AND THE WIDOW, JUST LIKE MARIA'S DAD ARE NOW LONG GONE.

[ CRYING ] >> REPORTING FROM ST.

PETERSBERG, RUSSIA.

HOW THE COVID PANDEMIC BEGAN HAVE BEEN REIGNITED FOLLOWING THE INTENSE SENATE HEARING LAST WEEK.

IT POINTS TO A BIGGER FEAR AND WHAT OUR NEXT GUEST ARGUES WHAT COULD BE OUR GREATEST OVERALL THREAT, BIOLOGICAL WEAPON T IS THE FOCUS OF ANNIE JACOBSON'S NEW BOOK AND SHE JOINS US TO DISCUSS.

>> THANK YOU.

AND ANNIE JACOBSON WELCOME TO THE SHOW >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOUR NEW BOOK, BIOLOGICAL WAR IS LIKE A PREVIOUS BOOK "NUCLEAR WAR SCENARIO" YOU DO IT AS A SCENARIO, EXPLAIN WHY IT AND WHY YOU CHOSE THAT FORMAT?

>> AS A NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER MY FIRST SIX BOOKS WERE WRITTEN IN THE PAST TENSE, THEY WERE ABOUT THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED.

NUCLEAR WAR A SCENARIO AND BIOLOGICAL WAR A SCENARIO TAKES THE READER THROUGH A HYPE HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION AND IT IS BASED ON WAR GAMING AND CASE OF BIO ON PANDEMIC PLAN THAT IS DONE BY PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS.

>> LET ME READ YOU A SENTENCE FROM THE BOOK.

IT IS FROM THE EPILOG OF THE BOOK.

THE RELEASE OF A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON EVEN BY ACCIDENT COULD BE THE FINAL FAILURE OF THE HUMAN IMAGINATION, EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

>> WELL, THAT IS A QUOTE I AM ECHOING NICK BROSTROM, THE IDEA OF A.I.

HE SPOKE OF, I THINK 10 YEARS AGO.

I FIND THAT WITH BIO IT IS BECOMING OR COULD BECOME A REALITY A LOT FASTER THAN ANY OF US WOULD WANT TO THINK.

YOU KNOW, WE KNOW FROM THE COVID PANDEMIC THAT A BIOLOGICAL CATASTROPHE IS NO LONGER THEORETICAL.

WHAT IS INTERESTING IN THE AT THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT AND AT FEMA AND AT HHS, THEY TALK ABOUT A BIOLOGICAL CATASTROPHE AS NOT JUST BEING AN ATTACK WITH THE BIOLOGICAL WEAPON BUT A LAB LEAK, AN ACCIDENT IN ONE OF THESE BSL-3 OR BSL-4 FACILITY THAT POPULATE THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.

>> THAT POSSIBILITY THAT COVID WAS A LAB LEAK WAS SO MUCH IN THE NEWS THIS PAST WEEK WHETHER DR.

ANTHONY FAUCI WAS ON.

I KNOW IT IS NOT PART OF YOUR BOOK, WHAT DO YOU FEEL ABOUT YOUR EXPERTISE, WAS IT A LAB LEAK OR NATURAL OCCURRENCE?

>> WELL, THANK YOU POINTING OUT IN MY BOOK I DON'T STEER IT.

I WANT TO LOOK AT THE WHOLE STORY THAT COULD LANE AND DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES.

AND THE REALITY OF PEOPLE THAT UNDERSTOOD ABOUT A LAB LEAK THAT WAS A FAR MORE PLAUSIBLE SITUATION THAN A RELEASE FROM A WET MARKET.

YOU KNOW, I THINK MOST IMPORTANT POINT OF ALL OF THAT AND OF COURSE THE CIRCUMSTANCES, THE TIMING.

IT IS CRAZY WHEN NUCLEAR WAR A SCENARIO CAME OUT IT WAS RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF PUTIN MAKING THREATS HE IS GOING TO MAKE IT.

AND TIMING IS FAVORING MY BOOKS.

AND IT IS WHAT IT MOVING TODAY, AND IT IS IN PARCEL TO ALL OF THIS, YOU KNOW, YES, I WRITE THAT VERY LINE THAT IS A SPOILER ALERT.

AND BY THE END I SAY POINT IF IT IS NOT PANIC T IS PRESSURE.

AND I HOPE THAT WHAT IS REVEALED ABOUT THE PUBLIC BEING MISLED ABOUT THE SCIENCE BEHIND THE LAB LEAK WOULD REALLY MAKE PEOPLE WANT TO BETTER INFORM THEMSELVES.

AND IT IS RIGHT THERE.

IF IT WAS A LAB LEAK.

IT WAS NOT INTENTIONAL.

AND IT IS PLAUSIBLE SCENARIO THAT THEY ARE EXPERIMENTING WITH THIS, THEY WILL BE LOOKING AT POSSIBLE BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS AND SOMEHOW, JUST LIKE A.I.

MIGHT GET OUT OF THE SANDBOX AND GET OUT OF CONTROL, A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON WILL.

>> I THINK YOU TOUCHED UPON THE REAL HEART OF THE MATTER OR THE DARK HEART OF THE MARK T IS CALLED DARK BIOLOGY.

REMINDER, THE WEAPON ARE ILLEGAL, THE BIOLOGICAL WAR IS ILLEGAL.

UNLIKE THE WEAPON THAT ARE NOT ILLEGAL TO THOSE NATIONS THAT HOLD THEM.

THE REASON THEY ARE LEGAL IS BECAUSE OF A TREATY THAT IS SIGNED BY ALL OF THE NATIONS ESSENTIALLY IN 1972.

BUT, THERE IS A LOOPHOLE IN THAT TREATY THAT ALLOWS FOR SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH FOR USE.

A FANCY WORD FOR TRYING TO MAKE MEDICAL COUNTERMEASURES TO COMBAT DANGEROUS WEAPONS AND THERE IS THE PARADOX ABOUT GENETIC MODIFICATIONS THAT ARE GOING ON IN THESE LABS, WHAT DEFINES BIOLOGICAL WEAPON ENGINEERING AND WHAT DEFINES RESEARCH FOR MEDICAL COUNTERMEASURES.

AND I CERTAINLY PRESENT TO READERS IN THE BOOK THE, YOU KNOW, WHAT SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS, WHAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN WORKING TO TRY TO KEEP BIOLOGICAL WEAPON OUT OF THE HANDS OF BAD GUYS FOR DECADES NOW.

THINK ABOUT ALL OF THERE AND HOW DANGEROUS THEY ACTUALLY THINK GAIN OF FUNCTION RESEARCH IS AND NEEDS TO REALLY BE LOOKED AT BY ALL OF US BECAUSE IT THREATENS ALL OF US.

>> WOULD YOU EXPLAIN TO ALL OF US WHAT GAIN OF FUNCTION IS?

WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT THE WUHAN LAB WHERE COVID MAY OF ORIGINATED?

AND HOW IS IT DIFFERENT FROM, SAY, GENETIC MODIFICATION?

>> WELL, GAIN OF FUNCTION IS ACTUALLY EXACTLY LIKE IT SOUNDS YOU ARE TRYING TO GAIN THE FUNCTION OF A PATHOGEN, SO, IT IS A VIRUS OR A BACTERIA, PEOPLE THINK BACTERIAL PATHOGENS ARE NOT AS DANGEROUS BECAUSE ANTIBIOTICS ALL BUT WIPED OUT, YOU KNOW, THE DANGEROUS BACTERIA EPIDEMICS, HOWEVER, WITH GAIN OF FUNCTION, WITH GIVING A NEW FUNCTION TO A PATHOGEN IN A LAB WHICH IS REALLY A SYNONYM FOR GENETIC ENGINEERING, YOU CAN BEAT A MEDICAL COUNTERMEASURE THAT ALREADY EXISTS.

SO, WE KNOW ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE, A FAMOUS MOUSE POX EXPERIMENT AND H5N1 FARRET FLU.

AND YOU CAN SEE THAT YOU CAN TRAIN OR TEACH OR MODIFY.

AND IT IS A FACE OF FATALITY OF 1%.

AND IT IS 100% AND TO DEFEAT COUNTERMEASURES, THOSE ARE ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE DONE UNDER IT, NOT EVEN THE GUISE OF FUNCTION, THAT IS ACTUALLY WHAT YOU DO IN GAIN OF FUNCTION, THE ARGUMENT IS, WHICH ACTUALLY, DOCTOR FAUCI SAID HIMSELF BACK IN 2012 THAT, YOU KNOW, SPECIFICALLY THAT HE SAID THAT THE RISK AND THE REWARDS OUT WEIGH THE RISKS.

AND IT IS TO BE RECONSIDERED.

>> WOULD YOU BAN GAIN OF FUNCTION RESEARCH?

>> WELL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO ASK ME, RIGHT NOW THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION HAS STOPPED ALL GAIN OF FUNCTION RESEARCH.

WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL ISSUE.

IT SHOULD NOT BE A PARTISAN ISSUE, PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA PUT A MORATORIUM ON GAIN OF FUNCTION EXPERIMENTS BACK IN THE EARLY DAYS OF HIS ADMINISTRATION.

SO, THE IDEA THAT IT IS POLITICALIZED IT IS JUST SORT OF A FUNCTION OF, I THINK, REALLY UNFORTUNATE FUNCTION OF WHERE WE ARE AS A SOCIETY TODAY.

THAT IT IS NOT, YOU KNOW, IT IS NOT THE SCIENCE THAT IS AT ISSUE IT IS THE POLITICALIZATION OF SCIENCE, DISGUISED AS SOMETHING ELSE.

THAT IS DANGEROUS FOR ALL OF >> WELL, YOU SAY, THAT THE U.S.

NOW BANNED GAIN OF FUNCTION RESEARCH.

BUT, OF COURSE, THE WUHAN LAB IS IN CHINA AND EVEN THOUGH THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME AMERICAN INVOLVEMENT, CHINA WAS DOING GAIN OF FUNCTION.

IS THERE ANY WAY TO STOP THEM?

>> YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THAT IS THE CATCH-22.

THAT IS THE ARGUMENT ABOUT WHY SOME SCIENTISTS WILL TELL YOU GAIN OF FUNCTION IS NECESSARY, GENETIC MODIFICATION.

WHAT I LEARNED IN WRITING "NUCLEAR WAR SCENARIO," YOU KNOW, WALTER I WAS INVITED TO GO TO THE VATICAN TO TALK TO THE POPE AND UNITED NATIONS TO TALK ABOUT IT AND THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE SENATE AND WHAT THIS WAS, WAS A REAL EYE- OPENING EXPERIENCE FOR ME.

THIS ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION ABOUT WHAT CAN BE DONE.

TREATIES, DIPLOMATS, THIS IS PART AND PARTIAL TO THE WORLD RIGHT NOW, WE ARE OUT OF THE ALL NUCLEAR TREATIES, NUCLEAR TREATIES ALLOW TRANSPARENCY, ALLOW DIPLOMACY AND CONVERSATION, BIOLOGICAL WAR HAS NO TREATY, IT HAS A TREATY BUT NO METHOD FOR ENFORCEMENT BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL.

SO, I THINK THIS IS A BRILLIANT OPPORTUNITY TO ENTER INTO A NEW TREATY ABOUT BIOLOGICAL ENGINEERING.

AND THEN YOU MAY BE CAN GET SOME MOVEMENT BETWEEN CHINA AND RUSSIA AND MOVEMENT BETWEEN DIP PLATS AND BETWEEN SCIENTISTS BECAUSE WHAT I LEARNED FROM SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS IN THIS FIELD IS THAT OVER THE DECADES IT IS ALWAYS THE SCIENTIST WORKING ON WHAT IS KNOWN AS TRACK TWO.

THAT ARE ABLE TO REALLY HELP THE DIPLOMATS GET THESE TREATIES ON THE TABLE AND THEN ULTIMATELY ENFORCE THEM.

>> BUT, ONE MAJOR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BIOLOGICAL WEAPON AND NUCLEAR WEAPON IS NORMAL PERSON COULD CREATE A NUCLEAR WEAPON IN THEIR BASEMENT.

IN FACT, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO CREATE NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND IT IS HARD TO HIDE THE FACT THAT YOU ARE DOING IT AS WE HAVE SEEN WITH IRAN AND OTHER PLACES.

BUT BIOLOGICAL WEAPON CAN'T THAT BE DONE IN SECRET WITHOUT HUGE FACILITIES?

>> IT IS ONE OF THE REASONS JUDGE THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT, WHILE IT LIST NUCLEAR WEAPON AS THE MOST DANGEROUS, IT LIST BIOLOGICAL AS THE GREATEST OVERALL THREAT.

FOR PRECISELY THE REASON YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

THERE IS AN INCREDIBLY LOW BARRIER TO ENTRY.

UNLIKE NUCLEAR WEAPON, NOT ONLY DO YOU NEED MATERIAL, LOOK AT HOW HARD IT IS WITH IRAN WHAT WE ARE GOING THROUGH BUT NOW, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A WEAPON DELIVERY SYSTEM, ICBM OR A SUBMARINE OR A BOMBER TO DELIVER A NUCLEAR WEAPON TO A TARGET.

A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON IS ALIVE.

THE WEAPON SYSTEM, WALTER, IF IT IS AIRBORNE THAT IS WHAT ALL OFFICIALS ARE AFRAID OF, ARE THE HUMAN LUNGS.

THAT SHOULD SCARE THE BEJESUS OUT OF ANYBODY AND SCARE THEM INTO ACTION.

>> WHAT ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE?

HOW MUCH IS A.I.

MAKING IT MUCH EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO SAY, HERE IS HOW I WOULD MODIFY THIS PATHOGEN TO MAKE IT A WEAPON AND SHOW THEM, YOU KNOW, EVEN IF THEY TRY TO PUT GUARDRAILS ON IT TO SHOW A NORMAL CITIZEN OR FOR THAT MATTER, A BAD ORGANIZATION, A.I.

CAN TEACH YOU HOW TO MAKE A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON.

>> THAT IS THE NUMBER ONE THREAT RIGHT NOW.

THAT THREAT IS ONLY GETTING BIGGER, LITERALLY BY THE TIME WE GET OFF THE AIR IT WILL BE AN EVEN BIGGER THREAT THAN WHETHER WE GOT ON.

IT IS BECAUSE SCIENCE IS MOVING AT THE SPEED OF LIGHTNING, AND, THE SYSTEMS THAT ARE IN PLACE TO MONITOR THEM ARE MOVING AT THE OLD PACE OF, YOU KNOW, ANALOG DEMOCRACY, FROM MY CONVERSATIONS WITH BOTH CEOs OF SOME OF THE A.I.

COMPANIES AND DARPA, THAT IS THE DEFENSE ADVANCED RESEARCH PROJECT AGENCY THAT IS REALLY TRYING TO DEAL WITH THERE A.I.

ENABLED BIO-THREAT CONCEPT.

THERE IS THE BIGGEST THREAT WE IMMEDIATELY, THE BIGGEST THREAT IN TERMS OF A.I.

RIGHT NOW THAT IS HOW IT IS BEING SEEN AND POSITIONED.

>> WHAT WE HAVE SEEN WITH DR.

ANT FLEE FAUCI, TESTIFYING IN ALL OF IT, ONCE AGAIN, THE EXPLOSION OF CONTROVERSY AROUND THE COVID PANDEMIC WAS THAT, THAT PANDEMIC CAUSED PEOPLE TO LOSE FAITH TO TRUST WHAT THE GOVERNMENT MIGHT SAY.

HOW CAN THAT GET A RESPONSE TO A BIOLOGICAL ATTACK.

>> YOU ARE RIGHT.

IT FRACTURED TRUST AND SCIENCE CERTAINLY AMONG AMERICANS.

BUT, IT ALSO SHOWED US DESPITE BILLIONS AND BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS BEING SPENT ON BIO-DEFENSE IN THE BOOK I LIKE TAKE READERS VERY QUICKLY THROUGH THE BUILD UP OF BIODEFENSE AFTER SEPTEMBER 11 AND WHERE WE ARE WITH IT TODAY.

SO, DESPITE ALL OF THIS MONEY AND EFFORT WE WERE COMPLETELY UNPREPARED FOR COVID.

SO, THOSE TWO COMPONENTS TOGETHER FRACTURED TRUST WITH LACK OF PREPAREDNESS.

NONE OF WHICH IS SORT OF IMPACTED BY THE AMOUNT OF MONEY SPENT.

INDICATE THAT IF YOU ARE GOING TO SPEND A LOT OF MONEY LET'S SPEND IT IN AN AREA WHERE THE PUBLIC BENEFITS.

>> WHEREVER WE TALK ABOUT NUCLEAR SCENARIOS, WE TALK ABOUT THE DEFENSE AGAINST THEM.

LIKEWISE, A.I., WE TALK ABOUT WHAT WE CAN DO TO PREVENT A.I.

ATTACK.

WHAT WAYS ARE THERE TO PREVENT THE SPREAD OF A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON?

ARE WE DEVELOPING?

TALKING ABOUT PENCILLIAN AND OTHERS PROTECTING US FROM INFECTION, CAN THEY PREVENT THINGS THAT ARE WILL STOP PATHOGENS?

>> THERE ARE A SUBSET OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE AN IDEA ABOUT THEM.

I REFERENCE THEM IN MY ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS.

I INTERVIEWED A LOT OF THEM.

THEY ARE WORKING ON MEDICAL COUNTERMEASURES THAT USE A.I.

AND BIO-TECHNOLOGY TO COME UP WITH THE IDEAS.

I DID NOT WANT TO PRESENT THAT UTOPIAN IDEA.

IN MY IDEA FOR REPORTER IT IS NEW AND I AM NOT CLEAR, I AM NOT CLEAR THAT THAT ACTUALLY IS A SOLUTION OR THE OTHER QUESTION IS, IS IT PART OF THE SORT OF BIO-TECHNOLOGY MILITARY INDUSTRIAL, I DON'T KNOW.

THERE ARE CERTAINLY A LOT OF ANSWERS OUT THERE.

WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW.

IT IS BEST SUMMED UP BY A QUOTE FROM RETIRED COLONEL WHO RAN THESE CATASTROPHIC NUCLEAR AND BIOLOGICAL WAR GAMES OUT OF THE OFFICE OF SECRETARY IN DEFENSE UNDER A LEGENDARY AND FAMOUS ANDY MARSHALL AND HIS ASSESSMENT.

WHAT HE TOLD ME IS THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO OR THERE IS VERY LITTLE YOU CAN DO REGARDING HOMELAND DEFENSE IN THE EVENT OF A BIOLOGICAL INCIDENT OR ATTACK.

ONLY THINGS TO MITIGATE EXTERMINATION.

THOSE ARE HIS WORDS.

AND, WHEN YOU REALLY THINK ABOUT THAT, I BELIEVE AND IT IS COMING AND REALIZING THANKS TO THE PANDEMIC WE ARE ALL GOING TO BE IMPACTED BY THE RELEASE OF ONE OF THESE NIGHTMARE GERMS.

SO, THEREFORE, WHY DON'T WE ALL BEGIN TO LOOK AT HOW TO ENFORCE GUARDRAILS TO MAKE SURE THIS KIND OF THING NEVER HAPPENS.

>> ANNIE JACOBSON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND FINALLY, KATHY IS GETTING A SAY IN STATE AFFAIRS?

ON THE CENTRAL BRAZILIAN STATE THE WORLD'S LARGEST RODENTS ARE MAKING VISITS TO THE BUILDING.

HERE YOU SEE THEM STROLLING IN, UNBOTHERRED APPROACHING LAWMAKERS WHO ARE PREPARING FOR A VOTE.

THIS WOULD SCARE ME.

DON'T KNOW HOW THEY CONTINUE TO WORK THERE.

THE ANIMALS WERE ESCORTED BACK TO THE PARK NEXT DOOR WHERE THEY LIVE.

PERHAPS THE SOCIAL CREATURES WERE POPPING BY FOR A NEIGHBORLY HELLO, INTERESTED IN LOCAL POLITICS, MAYBE THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT, IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE FOR OUR NEWS LATER, THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR & CO, JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

.

>> AMANPOUR & CO IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE K.WEIR, PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION, CHARLES ROSENBLOCK, MONIQUE WARSHAW.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.