(bright music) - And welcome back to Family Health Matters.

I'm Shelley Irwin.

With me today, Dr. Candice Lake, director of Wedgwood Autism Center for Child Development.

Jamie Counterman, foundation director at the University of Michigan Health-West.

Kae Pershon, artist, autism, ADHD Spectrum Disorder.

And of course that our conversation today.

So ladies, thank you for being here for this important timely conversation.

I will start with you if I may.

Kae, tell us a little about how you are and your words involved.

- Yeah, well, so I was diagnosed with ADHD around the age of 30.

So I was a late diagnosis.

A few years later, we figured out that I also have autism spectrum disorder.

So I'm one of those wonderful combinations of just a bunch of different neuro types, which is great.

I also am an artist.

I graduated actually from GV with a BFA in visual studies back in 2016.

And art has always really been my passion.

And I've consistently come back to photography.

So I've made it kind of my passion to signify in a visual sense different symptoms and struggles of ADHD and autism and just neuro divergency through traditional photography of like landscapes and abstract photography.

- Hmm.

Jamie, your story.

- I am also a late generalized anxiety disorder and ADHD diagnosis.

So I spent much of my lived experience and in career here in West Michigan in fundraising philanthropy, really committed it very passionately to social service, social justice causes, and not really knowing that so much of my own experiences were the reason why.

And has really led me on a path as I was late diagnosed at 35 with anxiety disorder and then diagnosed just a couple years ago with ADHD and not even understanding how that framed in navigating a workplace in anywhere, right?

But in West Michigan.

And particularly as a woman leader, how those characteristics of those neurodivergent experiences shape perceptions of my work.

And then additionally, I am the mother of a daughter with generalized anxiety disorder, just 10 years old.

And I'm grateful that we were able to have that conversation so much earlier than 35.

And so while I serve as the director of Health West Foundation, my experience is really coming from the place of having grown up in my career with undiagnosed neurodivergency and how that has looked and shaped how I approach work and parenthood and life.

- Yes, we'll dig into that.

Dr. Lake, your day is spent how?

- I run an autism center.

So we work with kids ages two to 12 diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder.

- Hmm.

I'll stay with you, Dr. Lake.

We're calling this kind of a discussion on neurodiversity, but what falls under that?

I haven't heard neurodiversity, I've heard ADHD and autism and of course others, but.

- Sure.

- What falls under this?

- So it's a very broad spectrum.

There are a lot of different conditions, what used to be called disorders, that would be considered neurodivergencies now.

So ADHD, autism spectrum disorders, anxiety.

And some even go so far as other disorders like schizophrenia would be included in that.

It depends on who you talk to, but we're really looking at a different experience than the neurotypical experience.

- And has this always been with mankind and we're starting to recognize it and- - Exactly.

- Accept it more?

- Yup, those differences have always been around, but we've failed to identify and support individuals who could use it.

And so now there's been this movement for neurodiversity that's really gaining traction.

- Yes.

And I don't wanna cut too close to our end of treatment, but we're controlling this, we're not curing.

- Right, right, yeah.

And I don't think it needs to be cured.

And I think that's a different way of looking at it.

And that's what neurodiversity is about, that there are differences in human experience and in brains and that should be celebrated.

Not necessarily something that we look to cure.

Although certainly there are struggles that individuals with neurodivergencies have that we can help with.

And we should be supportive in those rather than trying to just make them go away.

- Question for you both living with this.

How did you feel when you were diagnosed?

- I'm gonna try not to get emotional 'cause it was a very big moment for me.

- It answered a lot of questions.

And I remember, honestly, the way we figured it out is my spouse, bless his heart, is very, very patient and kind.

We were watching television and we were sitting together in a commercial for medication for adult ADHD came on.

And I jokingly said, I'm like, "Oh, huh, maybe I have ADHD."

And he goes, "Yeah, maybe you do."

And then he looked at me and I looked at him and I go, "Do I have ADHD?"

And I was very, very fortunate because a friend of mine, her father was in the field, and so he was able to get me in very quickly because a lot of people don't understand.

It is a very, very long process.

Isn't something that you can just get a diagnosis over the weekend.

It generally takes years.

I was very fortunate because mine only took about six months.

- [Shelley] Because it's not a blood test.

- Yeah, it's not a blood test now, it is several tests that you have to go through.

And especially as someone who has diagnosed older, I have learned how to mask a lot of my symptoms.

So I didn't realize that the way that I will tap my foot or count the ticking of a clock while someone's talking to me to try to maintain my focus wasn't something that people have to do.

But when I was speaking with, you know, the doctor who eventually diagnosed me when we were talking, he goes, "Yeah, no, that is you figuring out how to navigate in a world that is not built for you."

And like you said, it's a condition, it's not something where I have a disability, but I'm existing in a space that wasn't made for me.

And that's what makes it difficult.

So it's not that there's something wrong with the way I think or the way I behave, it's just I'm working in a world that's built for someone with wings and I'm on the ground.

And so it makes climbing a little bit harder.

- Jamie, similar story?

- Similar and different.

Much like neurodiversity, my experience was that I have been, what I would say is a, you know, working high performer over the course of my life in school, right?

As a student, in my career, because that is where I felt like I could get validation for some of the challenges that I now know that I was having.

When, after I had my daughter especially, and adding on that new element of life for me, the stress just became really, really significant.

And I remember thinking that somebody mentioned to me as we were talking about anxiety and feeling anxious that I have al had always felt like I was just kind of operating with the water lapping at my ears, right?

Like, I'm just barely holding my head up above the water and then having this, coming to this realization that that's not true for everybody.

And that's not how everybody walks around everybody.

And I thought they did, right?

I thought everybody felt that way.

And so navigating the anxiety was really the first step for me.

And getting my anxiety under control through counseling, medications, and just some of the kind of behaviors working on myself and my mindfulness, and then realizing that it wasn't done.

There was still something not right with me in the way that I was still having some significant struggles that weren't addressed by getting a generalized anxiety disorder diagnosis.

So when I received my anxiety diagnosis, I was relieved.

Felt like there was something I could do, medications helped a ton for me.

When I received my ADHD diagnosis, I was frustrated.

I wasn't relieved, I was disappointed, and I didn't expect that.

But I was disappointed because I felt like I could have lived my life experience so much easier The whole time in a world that wasn't built for the way that I interact with it.

And I think about professionally especially, but even in just school, right?

My tendency to verbally process, my tendency to interrupt because how I connect with someone in conversation is through the verbalization.

And that can feel like I'm being disrespectful, but it's really me trying to say, "I see you, I'm focused, I'm paying attention."

And that's not an intentional act.

It is how my brain navigates that experience.

And so, when I think about even earlier in my career and the feedback that you get, especially as a woman about, "Oh, you know, you're really, really great.

You talk too much."

Yes, I do.

I talk a whole, whole lot.

And it's not coming from a place of disrespect or it's just the way that my brain interacts.

And I didn't know that.

And I was so frustrated to learn that there were ways that I could have navigated that differently, but then also the world could have navigated experiencing me differently in that, right?

Because it wasn't bad or ill intention, it's just the way that I navigated.

And so the parameters of standard neurotypical life and the way that we are supposed to all interact and especially in work, in school, just haven't been designed for as Kae said, haven't been designed for how I experienced the world.

And that I could have done that easier was so disheartening.

And then the relief came.

And the bigger relief in finding that I wasn't alone through sharing like I'm doing here because it's not about the singular job that I do at any given time.

It's about how we can all interact in space and make this so much more accessible for people and feel like it's less of something, it's not something to be ashamed about.

It's just a part of who I am.

- Yes, great.

- Dr. Lake, I'm gonna have you respond to that and then we'll go back into autism.

But at what point does Kae, should Jamie have reached out?

I mean, many are watching this and say, "Well, I multitask and I can't focus and now I've got a problem."

But at what point do we seek medical help?

- That's a great question.

And so I really feel like when it's interfering with your daily life.

When you're having difficulties, that's the time to seek intervention.

- And that would be via?

- There are lots of different avenues for intervention.

So you can call Wedgwood for some help.

Of course.

We work with kids with autism in the center that I work at.

But Wedgwood also has lots of supports for individuals on the spectrum and with lots of other neurodivergencies.

You can call local agencies, reach out for a diagnosis, you can start with your primary care physician and they can give you a referral.

That's generally the most straightforward way to go about it, is talking to your primary care physician and getting a referral.

- And what's happening in the world of autism with kids?

Are our numbers growing?

- Yes.

- Why?

- Yes.

That's a great question too.

And we don't know entirely.

So part of it is better realization of autism and acceptance of autism, but some of it really is that the rate is growing and we're not entirely sure why.

There could be a lot of factors, there's a lot of environmental factors that could play into it.

We know it's an interaction of genes and environment that lead to the expression of autism, but it's not the same in everybody.

Just like the people that you see with autism are very different, the reasons for their autism are different.

And sometimes, it's genetic and sometimes, it's that interaction of genetics and environment.

- Yes.

And what time in treatment is being spent with kids diagnosed with autism?

What's happening?

- So we have a lot of kids that come to us, almost like a full-time job.

They come 30 to 40 hours a week.

These are kids who are pretty significantly impacted by their autism.

And so it affects all areas of their daily life, their academics, their coping intolerance, they're getting along with others, their activities of daily living.

So just caring for themselves.

And so we provide one-to-one therapy.

So we have a therapist with the child the entire time that they're there and they help them through all of those things and help navigate things that just a world that's not built for them.

So we help kids learn to adapt.

- Yes.

Well, speaking of kids, taking a moment to bring awareness to an upcoming new PBS Kids series.

So tune in, adults, to "Carl the Collector".

It's a new program about a warm-hearted raccoon and will be the first PBS Kids series led by a character on the autism spectrum.

This animated program will celebrate the diverse ways kids, of course, think and express themselves and help them develop a sense of self and community.

I'm sure you would agree with a series geared toward children ages four to eight, featuring a diverse cast of characters, of course, alongside a production team, neurodiverse and neurotypical writers, advisors, and voice talent.

So check out a peak at Carl Collector now.

- [Narrator] PBS kids welcomes "Carl the Collector."

- Hello, rock collection.

- [Narrator] Carl collects things.

- [Carl] The stickers are organized at the special category.

- [Narrator] He collects a lot of things.

- My bouncy ball collection.

- [Narrator] Including an amazing group of friends.

- We made you this friendship bracelet.

- For me?

- [Narrator] So add "Carl the Collector" to your collection.

- What's more important than a collecting mission?

Let's go.

(lively music) - All right, good.

You're getting the word out that life goes on yet.

Medical assistance necessary.

Take me to your art.

- Oh, absolutely.

I would love to.

So as someone who was late diagnosed, I realized that, I don't know if it's part of my autism, but I have zero shame about it.

I'm like, "Yeah, I've got ADHD."

And so many people would look at me and be like, "Oh, are you okay talking about it?"

I was like, "Yeah, I also have crazy colored hair.

Why would I not be okay talking about it?"

And so I realized that part of the expression came from me having a desire to educate and break down stigmas and making a space so that people who had a neurodiversity would feel comfortable talking about it and comfortable kinda sharing their expressions as well as people who may not necessarily understand or have the full scope of understanding or have only heard, "Oh, well, you know, ADHD.

Yeah, I forget my car keys sometimes."

Or you know, "I like to multitask."

Where it's like, "No, you don't understand.

This is a thing of me.

I go to pick up my car keys and then I see that I left my coffee cup on the table.

And then I realize as I'm picking up my coffee cup that the cat's bowl needs to be filled.

And it's this just cascading effect.

It's not just one forgetful thing.

It's literally not being able to grasp something."

I like to describe it as, it's like the world is kind of covered in oil and so everything is just really slippery.

Like ideas, concepts, things that are just really hard to hold onto.

And luckily, you know, therapy, counseling and, you know, medication in my case, really, really helped that.

And so it's one thing that I like to kinda speak of on the other side of having gone through that so that people can feel validated.

So each one of my series, I'm working on a series that's called Less, and it's in parentheses.

So you have Timeless, which is about time blindness.

You have ceaseless, which is about emotional deregulation.

Mindless, which is about forgetfulness.

And then I'm working on one that's called thoughtless, which is about impulse control.

So each one of the series is kind of representative of how I grew up really being told that I needed to be less, I needed to be less loud, I needed to be less rambunctious, I needed to be less impulsive.

And how disabling that can be in and of itself, of feeling like you can't be authentic to who you are.

And I do it in a way so that, I've been told, they're like, "Oh, your work is very approachable.

Your work is very beautiful."

And I'm like, "Well, I don't think art has to be one of those things where you look at it and you're confused for it to be meaningful."

I look at it and I'm like, I wanna make a beautiful landscape where someone looks at it and goes, "Oh, that's really pretty."

And if that's all they get out of it, that's great because I gave them a moment of joy.

But then if they look at it and they go, "That's a really beautiful landscape.

Let me read what it's about."

And then they're able to see the connections between the symptoms that I'm discussing and between my experiences and the artwork, then that creates a really beautiful bridge for them to be able to open those discussions.

- Hmm.

Before I go to you, Jamie.

Dr. Lake, the caregiver, the family, society, how much of empathy is needed here?

- Also, our families have that, and we actually are working with a local artist to help develop some of that as well and just bring in the community and show that these kids are really talented.

These kids are really capable.

Because I think sometimes, that's what society forgets.

We assume that people are not capable and we need to go the other route.

We need to presume competence.

- Jamie, with your much success in our community, congratulations.

You did mention you have had to work professionally and I think you used the term not design for a neuro spicy success.

That's your secret?

But you're living with this and you will.

So what do you tell to the listener says, I need to be- - So much of what Kae spoke of just calls to me, and I would use kind of different descriptors to communicate.

For me, I felt like I was between desire and action.

I was walking down a hallway that was filled with cobwebs and I couldn't ever quite move forward as I would've chosen to.

And medication for me was significant in that it felt like it blew the cobwebs out of the hallway.

And that was powerful.

I cried the first time I started medication because it was so simple, right?

And that was so challenging that it could have been simple so much earlier.

And because to navigate the world that we all operate in, I also mask a lot of those characteristics and behaviors.

Whether it's one of the things that I will do as I'm trying to remember a word, because forgetting, so language navigation and forgetting of words is common in ADHD.

And I will, like I'm calling it physically to my brain and thinking with motion and sound, right?

So I'll kind of tap through what I'm thinking in my mind.

And so those pieces are kind of how I work to do that in socially appropriate ways.

And so, so I'm not, you know, tapping my finger in the middle of a board meeting to the middle of my head, right?

I run foundation boards and fundraise a lot of money and I'm with, you know, all of the things that we think about when we think about professional environments.

And yet, the world, it's not necessarily about the world just changing everything and like a complete flip of accommodation, right?

Like, how am I going to interact with the world?

How is the world going to interact with me and how can we come together in such a way?

Right?

And that is where I feel like as a manager of people, as somebody who gets to hire other people, as a volunteer on boards, and even just a volunteer in this community, how can I show up for anyone else who is navigating spaces that I'm living and do that authentically to show that any place can be a place where you can serve and live?

What I like to say is that I have a number of kind of other things that I speak about in terms of my family history and, you know, trauma, childhood traumas and that.

However, you can be two things can and often are true at the same time.

And we don't think about that as we navigate the world, right?

So I have, I am successful by measures, it's weird to say.

It makes me super uncomfortable.

But by many measures, I am successful in my career.

I am an advocate and an activist in this community.

And one many would say that I'm successful in that space.

And I grew up in an ALICE asset limited income constrained employed, which means working for essentially family.

I was housing in stable, I grew up in domestic violence and I have anxiety and I am ADHD.

Those things are all true.

And anybody can have any of these things and have whatever success looks like for them still be true.

There just has to be some sort of partnering in the world sometimes for everyone to be able to navigate to that success.

And that is what I hope conversations like this allow, how are employers thinking about if you know what neurodiversity engagement looks like, how are you having conversations with staff about performance and/or what they need to be successful?

How I really would love to not be told to stop talking all the time.

- [Shelley] That's great.

- And I need to stop talking a little bit more.

Right?

And so, you know, there's balance in the world and that is how I approach that, is two things can be true at the same time and often are.

- I think that comes down to, again, Dr. Lake getting the word out that many live with many things.

And I'll just do another plug for the "Carl the Collector", which I think it premieres on WGVU PBS Kids 24/7 channel.

That's Thursday, November 14th.

So we've got a while in our presenting sponsor HOPE network.

Thank you for that partnership.

And dispel a myth or any other conception, especially back to your niche of autism.

- Sure.

A lot of people think that somebody with autism is not gonna make eye contact, is not interested in other people socially.

There are so many myths there, but a lot of that isn't true.

You can have people who are very socially motivated, but maybe don't know how to interact or initiate a conversation or continue a conversation.

And so those are skills that we work on because the world isn't built for people with autism and people with neurodivergencies.

But we can certainly teach people how to get along in it.

- And those who are receiving your care at Wedgwood grow up to be fine human beings/ - Of course, they're all wonderful human beings.

Some grow up to have more independence than others.

Some still need care throughout their lives, but some go to school and they don't need any additional supports.

And that's what we're here for, to help kids have more independence and more access to things that they like.

Yes.

Where do we find your art?

- Oh, you can find it on my website.

It's kphotoscape.com and that's just the letter K. I also have done a few exhibitions and also, I work with a company called ArtLifting and they actually represent me and have several of my pieces that they sell to organizations who are redoing like their corporate buildings and that sort of thing.

They've worked with Bank of America and Google, and a bunch of large corporations.

So they specialize in working with the disabled artists and artists who have faced homelessness.

And so they actually reached out to me when they saw one of my pieces and were like, "We think your work would work really well with our space."

And so they work represent me in a corporate sense in that way, so - Yes, with a wind down.

Meaning there are limitations, what do you leave us with?

- That much like we've been saying, ADHD and autism and a neurodiversity in general, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a hindrance or there's something wrong with you.

It just means that you see the world differently And that's okay.

And what we really need to be able to do is give people empathy and allow them the space to experiment with what those needs might be.

Because this conversation is really so new in terms of accommodation and allowing people to be authentic with how they see themselves and how they interact with the world.

A lot of times, it can be kind of a struggle and it can be difficult to navigate until they find out and they're like, "Oh, this is what works for me, so this is what I need to make sure that I'm successful."

And having that space to allow them to breathe and kind of experiment as they're going through so they can find out how to be successful without feeling like they have to hinder themselves or mask really heavily is really what makes a better environment for mental health overall.

- Hmm.

Great.

What do you leave us with, Jamie C?

- I Am so grateful to share my experience.

I'm grateful that I was diagnosed and I would say that if anybody's interested in hearing about what I share about in terms of neurodivergency or women leadership and how all of it ties together, my speaking engagements are available on my LinkedIn page.

And so that's probably the easiest way to hear that.

But you are you, everyone, are whole as you are.

And that is what I would help everyone to remember about one another is assuming positive intent in that forward movement.

- [Shelley] How's your daughter?

- She's so good.

She's so good.

She has been navigating through her diagnosis for a year now.

Had gone through into counseling and started medication and she will tell me how much it has helped her brain to not worry about things anymore.

And so, you know, having those conversations with children are so critical.

Not putting them off if they're scared of something, not discounting that, but really paying attention because we are the people in those kids' lives are the ones they can reach out to.

And it's important to have them felt heard, especially now that this is a conversation that we can have in the public that we didn't have when we were kids.

So thank you for asking.

She's fantastic.

- Welcome.

Dr. Candice Lake, director of Wedgwood Autism Center for Child Development, take us home with your final call.

- So people are different and that's a good thing and that's where I wanna focus.

We can acknowledge everybody's differences and support them and help them navigate the world in a way that works for them.

- And how does your center work then?

If one feels he or she needs a visit?

- Sure, they can give us a call.

Our number's on our website at wedgwood.org.

We have a wonderful program supervisor who will talk to you and tell you all about the services that we offer and how to get connected through insurance.

- And of course, you involve the whole family?

- Oh, yes.

- with treatment?

- Yup, there's a lot of collaboration because we want kids to do well at the center, but also out at home in the school, in their communities.

- Hmm.

Yes.

And of course, located in the campus of Wedgwood.

- We're actually at the corner of Leonard and Fuller.

It's our accurate campus.

- Good.

And that's Wedgwood with no E, right?

- Yeah.

- There we go.

Just the one E, yup.

All right, ladies, thank you very much.

Who's in for watching "Carl the Collector?"

- Oh, me.

- Okay.

- [Shelley] Wait for the 14th and I'll trust, I'll lead the question, but I imagine this is an important show to watch.

- Absolutely.

- You need help.

It's out there for you.

Again, "Carl the Collector" will be seen on our WGVU PBS, November 14th.

Certainly, it's Premier Hope Network.

Thank you again for your partnership.

You take care.

Thanks for watching.

- [Narrator] PBS kids welcomes "Carl the Collector."

- Hello, rock collection.

- [Narrator] Carl collects things.

- [Carl] The stickers are organized at the special category.

- [Narrator] He collects a lot of things.

- My bouncy ball collection.

- [Narrator] Including an amazing group of friends.

- We made you this friendship bracelet.

- For me?

- [Narrator] So add "Carl the Collector" to your collection.

- What's more important than a collecting mission?

Let's go.

(lively music) (bright music)